Reunification & Transport

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c2R
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Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by c2R »

bothar wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 20:13
The A2 should be National Secondary on the same basis as other coastal roads on the West coast. It might make sense to break it in two at Belfast though.
I'd go further and split it into many different sections and classifications as follows:
* Newry to Warrenpoint: National Primary (because it serves the ferry port)
* Warrenpoint to Newcastle: Regional
* Newcastle to Clough: National Secondary - extension of whatever the A7 would become from Belfast
* Clough to Strangford: Regional
* Portaferry to Bangor: Regional
* Bangor to Belfast: National Primary
* Belfast to Limavady: Regional
* Limavady to Derry: National Secondary - single continuous route between Coleraine and Derry
* Derry to Muff: Regional
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Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by SouthWest Philip »

bothar wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 20:13 There was a thread on this before and others before that. One major issue identified was a low number for the Belfast Derry route, which would subsume the M2 and A6, recycling the N10 was one idea.
Only four years ago, and apparently it was my idea then too! Repeating myself, early signs of dementia?!
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Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by bothar »

SouthWest Philip wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 21:03
bothar wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 20:13 There was a thread on this before and others before that. One major issue identified was a low number for the Belfast Derry route, which would subsume the M2 and A6, recycling the N10 was one idea.
Only four years ago, and apparently it was my idea then too! Repeating myself, early signs of dementia?!
My post about yellow diamonds was pretty much identical then too, a sign of consistency perhaps?
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Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by Euan »

It would definitely be a bit difficult to accommodate Northern Ireland into the existing MNRL system in its entirety as, like others have said, that system was simply not designed to take such a scenario into account. In general the A roads are more extensive than the N roads, but even if a considerable proportion of A roads were given R numbers it would still not take much to run out of Nxx series numbers - especially amongst the national secondaries.

The B roads appear to be slightly more extensive than the R roads but not by much, so the vast majority of them would probably become R roads. There are many R numbers that are not used, but it is clear looking closely at the numbers the ones that are not in use were reserved for other reasons. In general R101-R799 were allocated to rural routes and R801-R999 were allocated to urban routes. A considerable chunk of the urban numbers are not in use, but it would be nowhere near enough to cover the bulk of the B roads. In addition, no new numbers would be left over for any newly built/designated urban routes south of the border.

Amongst the “rural” R numbers there are intentional gaps which appear to separate blocks of numbers that have been allocated typically to groups of counties. Whilst you may be able to cover a considerable extent of the B roads in the North with the R numbers in the “gaps”, I think in reality those numbers were intended as spares for use within the group of counties whose allocated numbers come right before the gap. Indeed many of these numbers have already been used including some of the long distance re-designated N routes such as R132 and R445.

One possibility might be to use one and two digit R numbers for B roads with the same number which then leaves the three digit B roads to deal with. Alternatively there could be four digit R road numbers which could just involve taking the existing B numbers and advancing each of them by 1000 so B15 becomes R1015, B146 becomes R1146 etc. Both scenarios would however break the rule that all regional numbers should have three digits and may give a false impression that they have a different level of importance to routes in the Rxxx series.

L numbers I can’t see being too problematic from a numbering perspective as each county has its own distinct numbering system. Local primaries would probably equate roughly to C roads and local secondaries and tertiaries would equate to U roads. The big question here is what the administrative geography of Northern Ireland would look like post-reunification as the six historic counties have long been superseded for the purposes of local government. If a decision is made at some stage to give the NI counties some level of formal status - even one that falls short of them forming local authorities - then it might merit each county having its own internally unique set of L numbers.
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Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by JohnnyMo »

Assuming the IIrish car registration scheme is extended

using existing local authorities :

A - Antrim (Antrim & Newtownabbey, Mid & East Antrim, Causeway Coast & Glens) )
AH - Armagh ( Armagh City ...., Lisburn & Castlereagh)
B - Belfast ( Belfast City Council )
DN - Down ( Ards & North Down, Newry, Mourne and Down )
F - Fermanagh ( Fermanagh & Omagh, Mid Ulster)
DY - Derry ( Derry & Strabane)

using ceremonial counties :

A - Antrim
AH - Armagh
B - Belfast ( I know this isn't a county but it avoids the issues similar to Dublin)
DN - Down
F - Fermanagh
LY - Derry/Londonderry ( using the convention the English name is used, also a sop to Unionism )
TE - Tyrone
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Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by Owain »

Osthagen wrote: [...] two M1s within one sovereign state that don't share any obvious continuity certainly could.

As for what new designations Ulster's motorways would assume, I'd go with the following:
M1 = M16
M2 = M13
[...]
But the two M1s do already share an obvious continuity - try driving the quickest route from Dublin to Belfast without using both of them!

What would surely happen is that the NI M1 would retain that number between Belfast and Sprucefield, and it would probably be only a matter of time before an EU grant were awarded to upgrade the A1 from Sprucefield to the border to motorway, linking the two sections.

What would happen to the rest of the M1 west of Sprucefield is open to debate. While it could easily become M16, should the N16 be extended to take over the A4, it is worth bearing in mind that the N12 would probably be extended too by taking over the A3.

As it is the A3 and not the A4 that runs from Portadown to Lisburn, you could end up with Dungannon-Portadown becoming M16, and Portadown-Lisburn becoming M12 - in fact there's already an M12 connecting the A3 to the M1, and that short stretch would provide the obvious link between an extended N12 and a new M12!

c2R wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 20:40
bothar wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 20:13
The A2 should be National Secondary on the same basis as other coastal roads on the West coast. It might make sense to break it in two at Belfast though.
I'd go further and split it into many different sections and classifications as follows:
[...]
* Limavady to Derry: National Secondary - single continuous route between Coleraine and Derry
[...]
That section is a busy road during rush hour (trust me - I know!), so while I agree that it should get a continuous route number, I'd suggest that it should be National Primary rather than Secondary. It could quite easily be an extension of N13.

JohnnyMo wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:50 Assuming the IIrish car registration scheme is extended
[...]
DN - Down ( Ards & North Down, Newry, Mourne and Down )
Careful now - I'm sure Dubliners wouldn't want there to be any confusion with their prestigious 'D' plates!
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Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by the cheesecake man »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:18 If you look at the road lists for Ireland (Republic), you'll notice that there are gaps in the N-road list. For the primary routes, there is no N34-39 and no N41-49, while the secondary routes peter out at N87 (there are also some defunct numbers available for reuse). It should therefore be fairly easy to integrate the NI network into an all-Ireland system, indeed the probable routes of some N-roads near the border can be easily surmised (yes, N2, I'm looking at you, and N54, stop trying to hide at the back. N16, I know where you're going and I can see what your ambitions are, N12).
If N1 and A1 continue to be upgraded to M1 ... That looks like it was designed for reunification from the start, with both sides pointing their route 1 at the other's capital rather than their own second city :stir:

From the SABRE Wiki: N2 :

The N2 is the main road running north-northwest of Dublin to Monaghan, beyond which it connects at the border with the A5 to Derry.


The N2 starts at the Finglas Interchange M50 J5 and runs northwest past the Airport logistics park. The first 4.5 km of the route is D3 HQDC to J2 with the R135, where there is a lane drop and the route continues for 13 km as the D2M M2, which crosses

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Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by c2R »

Re: Limavady to Derry
Owain wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 13:22
That section is a busy road during rush hour (trust me - I know!), so while I agree that it should get a continuous route number, I'd suggest that it should be National Primary rather than Secondary. It could quite easily be an extension of N13.
Ah, but a route isn't national primary just because it is busy.... these form the backbone of the strategic network. There are various routes in County Dublin, for example, that are Regional and very busy!
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Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by JohnnyMo »

Owain wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 13:22
JohnnyMo wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:50 Assuming the IIrish car registration scheme is extended
[...]
DN - Down ( Ards & North Down, Newry, Mourne and Down )
Careful now - I'm sure Dubliners wouldn't want there to be any confusion with their prestigious 'D' plates!
They seem to cope with DL (Donegal)
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Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by RichardA626 »

JohnnyMo wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:50 Assuming the IIrish car registration scheme is extended

using existing local authorities :

A - Antrim (Antrim & Newtownabbey, Mid & East Antrim, Causeway Coast & Glens) )
AH - Armagh ( Armagh City ...., Lisburn & Castlereagh)
B - Belfast ( Belfast City Council )
DN - Down ( Ards & North Down, Newry, Mourne and Down )
F - Fermanagh ( Fermanagh & Omagh, Mid Ulster)
DY - Derry ( Derry & Strabane)

using ceremonial counties :

A - Antrim
AH - Armagh
B - Belfast ( I know this isn't a county but it avoids the issues similar to Dublin)
DN - Down
F - Fermanagh
LY - Derry/Londonderry ( using the convention the English name is used, also a sop to Unionism )
TE - Tyrone
I was thinking on similar lines earlier.
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Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by Vierwielen »

JohnnyMo wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:50 Assuming the IIrish car registration scheme is extended

using existing local authorities :

A - Antrim (Antrim & Newtownabbey, Mid & East Antrim, Causeway Coast & Glens) )
AH - Armagh ( Armagh City ...., Lisburn & Castlereagh)
B - Belfast ( Belfast City Council )
DN - Down ( Ards & North Down, Newry, Mourne and Down )
F - Fermanagh ( Fermanagh & Omagh, Mid Ulster)
DY - Derry ( Derry & Strabane)

using ceremonial counties :

A - Antrim
AH - Armagh
B - Belfast ( I know this isn't a county but it avoids the issues similar to Dublin)
DN - Down
F - Fermanagh
LY - Derry/Londonderry ( using the convention the English name is used, also a sop to Unionism )
TE - Tyrone
Car registration woudl actually be quite a headache as Northern Ireland appears to have a higly centralised registration system whereas the Republic has (as far as I can see) a localised system, hence the localised numberplates. The newly unified country would have to decide which way to go and merge the two systems of car registrations accordingly.
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Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by AndyB »

Registration plates are still based on ceremonial counties. It’s been whittled away since Swansea took over - for example, buses are now carrying UI plates despite being registered in Belfast - but in the background, it’s still the six counties (Antrim IA, Armagh IH, Down IJ, Fermanagh IL, Londonderry (Coleraine) IW, Tyrone JI), and the two county boroughs Belfast (OI) and Derry (UI).

My reckoning is:

AN Antrim
AR Armagh
B Belfast (see also Limerick, Waterford and Cork for the single letter precedent)
DY Derry (merged with county)
DN Down
FE Fermanagh
TY Tyrone

I can easily see them splitting Dublin into its administrative divisions, FL Fingal, SD South Dublin, RD Rathdown Dun Laoghaire and retaining D for Dublin City to make registration marks easier to manage, however much people want to have Dublin plates.

The key National Primary routes would continue to be:
N1 (A1/M1/A12) Killeen to Belfast
N2 (A5) Aughnacloy to Derry
(A29/A28/A2) Coleraine-Armagh-Newry-Warrenpoint
N16 (A4) Belcoo-Portadown
N12 (A3) Middletown-Lisburn
N13 (A516/A2) Derry-Coleraine
N3 (A46/A509) Belleek-Belturbet
(A515/A6/M2) Derry-Belfast
(A26) Moira-Coleraine
(A2) Carrickfergus-Belfast-Bangor
(A8) Glengormley-Larne
(A20) Belfast-Newtownards
(A24) Belfast-Newcastle
(A57) Templepatrick-Airport
(A55) Belfast outer ring

That would leave the following National Secondaries, some of which are currently primary A roads:
(A32/A505) Enniskillen-Omagh-Cookstown
(A36) Ballymena-Larne
(A7) Carryduff-Downpatrick
(A52) Belfast-Nutts Corner (back way to the airport)
(A22) Dundonald-Comber
(A21/A22) Bangor-Downpatrick
(A20/A25) Newtownards-Portaferry-Strangford-Downpatrick
(A44) Cloughmills-Ballycastle
(A28) Aughnacloy-Armagh
(A31/A54/A29) Moneymore-Coleraine-Portrush
Some other non-primary A roads

Remaining A roads, all B roads and all or nearly all C roads become R roads

Part of what happened when the N roads were created was that Ireland asked whether they had specified the correct T roads in the first place. Many T roads are now R roads, and a few L(ink) roads became National Secondary routes.
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Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by exiled »

IIRC plates in the Republic follow the same basic scheme as the UK, localised when new but then it is a plate for life. They are not changed when the vehicle moves county.

The plates I would image would be changed on a rolling basis. New cars would instantly get the new plates after a certain point, older cars get new plates when the tax or MOT comes up for renewal. So after a certain point it would be a six month to 2 year rollover for example.

The speed limits would change as they did in the Republic back in '06, a big bang over night. Redoing the direction signs and warning signs would be well down the list on the transport side, though with a rolling scheme to put up the metric and bilingual signs starting at a similar point to the plates.

Because no other county begins with an 'F' Fermanagh would probably just get F as its country code. Derry DY. Down DN, Armagh AH, Antrim AM, Tyrone TE, with Belfast getting B separately.
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Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by RichardA626 »

I've got the feeling the issue of registrations in the Irish Republic are centralised but the county code reflects the address of the first owner.
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Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by Vierwielen »

RichardA626 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 22:02 I've got the feeling the issue of registrations in the Irish Republic are centralised but the county code reflects the address of the first owner.
That makes sense. I recall that when I lived in South Africa, a lot of South African law (especially commercial law), appeared to start life off as the UK law with the word "London" replaced by "Pretoria" and the words "Elizabeth, Queen ..." replaced by "NNN, State President ...". If the same happens in Ireland (which saves them employing reams of people agonising over the details of laws), the iti si likely that they will follow UK procedures, especially when doing so is not visible to the person in the street.
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Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by JohnnyMo »

RichardA626 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 22:02 I've got the feeling the issue of registrations in the Irish Republic are centralised but the county code reflects the address of the first owner.
Unless this has changed, I know the system used to be localise as I had a cousin who worked in the office in Galway. She mainly deal with driving licences but also registrations.
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Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by dereer »

Euan wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 08:50 It would definitely be a bit difficult to accommodate Northern Ireland into the existing MNRL system in its entirety as, like others have said, that system was simply not designed to take such a scenario into account. In general the A roads are more extensive than the N roads, but even if a considerable proportion of A roads were given R numbers it would still not take much to run out of Nxx series numbers - especially amongst the national secondaries.

...
What I would personally do is give less important/shorter National Road links 3 digit numbers, generally based on the number of a parent road. For instance: N19 -> N180, N29 -> N250. I would also do the same for regional roads. I feel that most of the current R8xx and R9xx roads could be assigned a 4 digit number, freeing up a large amount of numbers for NI. Obviously 3 digit national roads and 4 digit regional roads could also be assigned in NI. A and B-roads roads with obvious regional numbers would use said number, i.e. B36 (Northern Ireland) -> R187, A29 (Northern Ireland) from Newtownhamilton to the border -> R177
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From the SABRE Wiki: N19 :

The N19 is a short but important link road in western Ireland, which exists in order to serve Shannon and its airport. It is unique among National Primary Roads in that it runs entirely on new build road to serve the airport, and does not run on the line of any former T Road, even partially. [[File:N19 from Shannon Airport, looking to the N18

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