Reunification & Transport

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
pjr10th
Member
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2020 23:35

Reunification & Transport

Post by pjr10th »

Hello all,

With the recent news from Northern Ireland, it's looking increasingly likely that one day we may see Irish reunification. It's becoming a matter of when, rather than if. But rather than getting into a debate over reunification, let's imagine a world where the border poll happens and NI votes to leave. What do we think the implications for roads policy in the new unified country are?

(Note: Sorry for making a new thread. I thought that might be more appropriate than resurfacing a 17 year old thread on the topic)

I case see two scenarios for the future of NI in a reunified Ireland: complete reunification or devolved reunification.

In the event of the devolved latter, I would imagine NI and the Republic would keep separate road number schemes, however that Motorways would be brought into line with each other to remove duplicates (maybe a bit like Scotland where 7, 8 and 9 are reserved for Ulster motorways and 1-6 are for Republic motorways). I can see a case where A roads might be renumbered N roads as well, but that may create difficulties if there's a lack of numbers left. More below. In terms of road signs & highway code, I would imagine NI keeping the UK standards as it does now, eventually migrating some things over, such as adopting metric units. In terms of number plates, presumably the NI DVLA would keep its current system going in that case, but GB plates would need a GB sticker and IRL plates would be able to be transferred between jurisdictions as at present.

In the case of complete reunification, I imagine the whole system becomes a headache. Firstly, MABC would need to become MNRL, with many numbers already claimed. Some choices are obvious (A3 -> N12), but others less so (e.g. A6). It seems odd to me that a country planning for eventual reunification designed a numbering system which didn't really account for Northern Irish roads. Although the Irish Highway Code could be adopted straight away, road signage would need to be gradually brought into line too. Not just metric signs but all road signs (such as adopting yellow diamonds, yellow verge lines and single continuous lines). Or maybe the Irish would take this opportunity to get in line with the rest of Europe and adopt the red triangles for their network? Finally, all NI plates would need to be re-registered to match the Irish system. Maybe B For Antrim (Belfast), DO (Down), A (Armagh), DE (Co. Londonderry), F (Fermanagh) and TY (Tyrone).

This is all my personal speculation, though. Are there other imaginable futures for the relationship? Would that have a different impact on the roads policy? Or could the above situations produce different outcomes than I've suggested. Interesting to see your responses. :D
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26209
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by Owain »

pjr10th wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 16:56 Hello all,

With the recent news from Northern Ireland, it's looking increasingly likely that one day we may see Irish reunification. It's becoming a matter of when, rather than if. But rather than getting into a debate over reunification, let's imagine a world where the border poll happens and NI votes to leave. What do we think the implications for roads policy in the new unified country are?
Well, they should certainly look at establishing some connectivity down the western side, irrespective of whether reunification happens or not.

My partner is going to spend the summer in Ireland undertaking research for her PhD. The locations she hopes to visit include Belfast, Derry, Lifford, Galway, Mullingar, Portlaois, Ennis, and Cork. This is all supposed to happen on public transport, because universities and research councils appear to think that everything can be done that way, and that driving cars is bad.

She's already decided that it will be easier to do two trips - one to the North, and one to the South, returning to Leeds in between - than to do the whole itinerary in one go.

EDITED TYPO
Last edited by Owain on Tue May 10, 2022 10:22, edited 1 time in total.
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
User avatar
bothar
Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 22:50
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by bothar »

pjr10th wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 16:56 Not just metric signs but all road signs (such as adopting yellow diamonds, yellow verge lines and single continuous lines). Or maybe the Irish would take this opportunity to get in line with the rest of Europe and adopt the red triangles for their network?
I am the most Europhile person imaginable, but I would strongly argue for the yellow diamonds. I have made many cross-border journeys at night and they are simply more visible. On the NI side they are adding yellow backing boards on signs, which is not needed in the ROI. Single continuous lines remain in use in the ROI but hazard markings are also now widely used, I think this is appropriate as it gives you a set of tools to use depending on the road. Yellow verge lines make sense too, you either use yellow on the middle or on the side, why not use the colour to differentiate?
"I intend to always travel a different road"
Ibn Battuta 1304-1368
Bomag
Member
Posts: 948
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 23:26

Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by Bomag »

I can see NI being pared down with Tyrone? going over to the republic but the same reason why NI was formed in the first place will apply in future. There will be a significant number of areas in Antrim, North Down etc where rule from Dublin is unacceptable. A devolved administration would be a minimum. In addition why would the republic want all those extra voters who would never vote for the big two parties in the republic and destabilise the Dial.

Most roads legislation and things like CDM are already NI specific and are not UK wide. The republic use UK/GB standards as the basis for theirs, while the signs themselves are different design guidance and best practice are very similar. In terms of numbering the cost will be significant. There is no practical need for any change - the current systems is clear and works. As for the DVLA there will be a significant number of people who will have their current driving licence, as with the UK passport, prised from their cold dead hands.

So the impact is likely to be no different than now. There is NI legislation within the UK. There would be NI legislation within Ireland.
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11162
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by c2R »

Bomag wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 00:26 As for the DVLA there will be a significant number of people who will have their current driving licence, as with the UK passport, prised from their cold dead hands.
It's worth noting that driving licences in the north, issued by the DVA in Coleraine, aren't the same as GB driving licences issued by the DVLA in Swansea.
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
User avatar
JohnnyMo
Member
Posts: 6982
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 13:56
Location: Letchworth, Herts, England

Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by JohnnyMo »

bothar wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 23:02
pjr10th wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 16:56 Not just metric signs but all road signs (such as adopting yellow diamonds, yellow verge lines and single continuous lines). Or maybe the Irish would take this opportunity to get in line with the rest of Europe and adopt the red triangles for their network?
I am the most Europhile person imaginable, but I would strongly argue for the yellow diamonds. I have made many cross-border journeys at night and they are simply more visible. On the NI side they are adding yellow backing boards on signs, which is not needed in the ROI. Single continuous lines remain in use in the ROI but hazard markings are also now widely used, I think this is appropriate as it gives you a set of tools to use depending on the road. Yellow verge lines make sense too, you either use yellow on the middle or on the side, why not use the colour to differentiate?
I expect the EU would push Ireland the other-way adoption of the Vienna Convention. Able to sell it as a genuine merger not a take over.
“The simple step of a courageous individual is not to take part in the lie" - Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn
Johnny Mo
User avatar
JohnnyMo
Member
Posts: 6982
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 13:56
Location: Letchworth, Herts, England

Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by JohnnyMo »

c2R wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 07:21
Bomag wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 00:26 As for the DVLA there will be a significant number of people who will have their current driving licence, as with the UK passport, prised from their cold dead hands.
It's worth noting that driving licences in the north, issued by the DVA in Coleraine, aren't the same as GB driving licences issued by the DVLA in Swansea.
IIRC NI had mandator photo driving licences since the troubles.
“The simple step of a courageous individual is not to take part in the lie" - Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn
Johnny Mo
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16908
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by Chris5156 »

JohnnyMo wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 08:54
bothar wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 23:02
pjr10th wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 16:56 Not just metric signs but all road signs (such as adopting yellow diamonds, yellow verge lines and single continuous lines). Or maybe the Irish would take this opportunity to get in line with the rest of Europe and adopt the red triangles for their network?
I am the most Europhile person imaginable, but I would strongly argue for the yellow diamonds. I have made many cross-border journeys at night and they are simply more visible. On the NI side they are adding yellow backing boards on signs, which is not needed in the ROI. Single continuous lines remain in use in the ROI but hazard markings are also now widely used, I think this is appropriate as it gives you a set of tools to use depending on the road. Yellow verge lines make sense too, you either use yellow on the middle or on the side, why not use the colour to differentiate?
I expect the EU would push Ireland the other-way adoption of the Vienna Convention. Able to sell it as a genuine merger not a take over.
No need - yellow diamonds are compliant with the Vienna Convention. It states that warning signs should either be equilateral triangles with red borders or yellow diamonds. The Wikipedia article you linked to mentions it.
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by Chris Bertram »

If you look at the road lists for Ireland (Republic), you'll notice that there are gaps in the N-road list. For the primary routes, there is no N34-39 and no N41-49, while the secondary routes peter out at N87 (there are also some defunct numbers available for reuse). It should therefore be fairly easy to integrate the NI network into an all-Ireland system, indeed the probable routes of some N-roads near the border can be easily surmised (yes, N2, I'm looking at you, and N54, stop trying to hide at the back. N16, I know where you're going and I can see what your ambitions are, N12).
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

From the SABRE Wiki: N2 :

The N2 is the main road running north-northwest of Dublin to Monaghan, beyond which it connects at the border with the A5 to Derry.


The N2 starts at the Finglas Interchange M50 J5 and runs northwest past the Airport logistics park. The first 4.5 km of the route is D3 HQDC to J2 with the R135, where there is a lane drop and the route continues for 13 km as the D2M M2, which crosses

... Read More
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 10:26
JohnnyMo wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 08:54
bothar wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 23:02

I am the most Europhile person imaginable, but I would strongly argue for the yellow diamonds. I have made many cross-border journeys at night and they are simply more visible. On the NI side they are adding yellow backing boards on signs, which is not needed in the ROI. Single continuous lines remain in use in the ROI but hazard markings are also now widely used, I think this is appropriate as it gives you a set of tools to use depending on the road. Yellow verge lines make sense too, you either use yellow on the middle or on the side, why not use the colour to differentiate?
I expect the EU would push Ireland the other-way adoption of the Vienna Convention. Able to sell it as a genuine merger not a take over.
No need - yellow diamonds are compliant with the Vienna Convention. It states that warning signs should either be equilateral triangles with red borders or yellow diamonds. The Wikipedia article you linked to mentions it.
ROI of course introduced diamonds in 1956 - and they looked westwards for inspiration. As a result there is a lot of American influence even on today's Irish road design; notably Stop signs everywhere, huge grassy medians on dual carriageways, and hard shoulders on all major roads. Economic pressures have stopped some of that but you still see the remnants.

I would've personally stolen the ROI yellow edge line markings and done something else for parking restrictions. I really like the yellow hard shoulder line, it makes it crystal clear that isn't a running lane.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11162
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by c2R »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:36 I would've personally stolen the ROI yellow edge line markings and done something else for parking restrictions. I really like the yellow hard shoulder line, it makes it crystal clear that isn't a running lane.
I have to say that I prefer the use of yellow to indicate temporary layouts through roadworks, as is common in some continental countries. For hard shoulders, I've always been a big fan of the original Lancashire red surfacing - making it crystal clear that it isn't a running lane!

Image
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by Bryn666 »

c2R wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:56
Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:36 I would've personally stolen the ROI yellow edge line markings and done something else for parking restrictions. I really like the yellow hard shoulder line, it makes it crystal clear that isn't a running lane.
I have to say that I prefer the use of yellow to indicate temporary layouts through roadworks, as is common in some continental countries. For hard shoulders, I've always been a big fan of the original Lancashire red surfacing - making it crystal clear that it isn't a running lane!

Image
Didn't ROI experiment with orange markings for roadworks? Or did I dream that... Canada uses orange because yellow is reserved for centre lines.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26209
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by Owain »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:36 I would've personally stolen the ROI yellow edge line markings and done something else for parking restrictions. I really like the yellow hard shoulder line, it makes it crystal clear that isn't a running lane.
You say that, but the convention in the RoI is for slower vehicles to pull onto the hard shoulder to allow quicker vehicles to pass. This is very common practice.
c2R wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:56 I have to say that I prefer the use of yellow to indicate temporary layouts through roadworks, as is common in some continental countries. For hard shoulders, I've always been a big fan of the original Lancashire red surfacing - making it crystal clear that it isn't a running lane!
I really like that idea too. The solid line has more of "Do not cross except in emergency" look about it than a dashed yellow line.
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by Bryn666 »

Owain wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:38
Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:36 I would've personally stolen the ROI yellow edge line markings and done something else for parking restrictions. I really like the yellow hard shoulder line, it makes it crystal clear that isn't a running lane.
You say that, but the convention in the RoI is for slower vehicles to pull onto the hard shoulder to allow quicker vehicles to pass. This is very common practice.
c2R wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:56 I have to say that I prefer the use of yellow to indicate temporary layouts through roadworks, as is common in some continental countries. For hard shoulders, I've always been a big fan of the original Lancashire red surfacing - making it crystal clear that it isn't a running lane!
I really like that idea too. The solid line has more of "Do not cross except in emergency" look about it than a dashed yellow line.
The dashed yellow edge line on N and R roads specifically allows - and on wide single carriageways with shoulders expects! - it though. It is, iirc, an offence to cross a solid yellow line on an Irish motorway except in an emergency.

The M66 in that image no longer has a red hard shoulder :evil:
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26209
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by Owain »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:45
Owain wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:38
Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:36 I would've personally stolen the ROI yellow edge line markings and done something else for parking restrictions. I really like the yellow hard shoulder line, it makes it crystal clear that isn't a running lane.
You say that, but the convention in the RoI is for slower vehicles to pull onto the hard shoulder to allow quicker vehicles to pass. This is very common practice.
c2R wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:56 I have to say that I prefer the use of yellow to indicate temporary layouts through roadworks, as is common in some continental countries. For hard shoulders, I've always been a big fan of the original Lancashire red surfacing - making it crystal clear that it isn't a running lane!
I really like that idea too. The solid line has more of "Do not cross except in emergency" look about it than a dashed yellow line.
The dashed yellow edge line on N and R roads specifically allows - and on wide single carriageways with shoulders expects! - it though. It is, iirc, an offence to cross a solid yellow line on an Irish motorway except in an emergency.
Ah, sorry - I didn't realise that you were talking specifically about the Irish motorways, partly because I'd forgotten that the yellow line is continuous on such roads!
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
User avatar
Osthagen
Member
Posts: 3342
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 15:01
Location: Mercia

Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by Osthagen »

In the event of a political union, one think I can't see is Dublin immediately rushing to re-classify Northern Ireland's roads outright. I think that most of them would retain their UK designations for a time, because the Republic would be faced with far more pressing matters compared to the designation of a few stretches of tarmac.

The exception, of course, would be the motorways. I think these would be renumbered relatively sharply, and the reason why isn't hard to see; because a road changing its designationas it enters the former United Kingdom wouldn't cause too much confusion, but two M1s within one sovereign state that don't share any obvious continuity certainly could.

As for what new designations Ulster's motorways would assume, I'd go with the following:
M1 = M16
M2 = M13
On the basis that these routes have relative continuity with the ROI's N16 and N13, respectively . The NI M5 has no obvious continuity with anything in the ROI, so it's designation, as a spur to the A2, would presumably be determined by whatever identity that road would end up assuming under reunification.
"I see the face of a child. He lives in a great city. He is black. Or he is white. He is Mexican, Italian, Polish. None of that matters. What matters, he's an American child"
- Richard Nixon
User avatar
c2R
SABRE Wiki admin
Posts: 11162
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:01

Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by c2R »

Certainly it'd make sense to redirect the M1 so that Dublin to Belfast is a continuous motorway with a single number, renumbering the Dungannon branch as something else.

As for the rest of the north, as a SABREistic exercise, I'd love to renumber the lot so that it makes some sort of logical sense.... but there's no financial incentive to do so...
Is there a road improvement project going on near you? Help us to document it on the SABRE Wiki - help is available in the Digest forum.
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Get involved! - see our guide to scanning and stitching maps
Bomag
Member
Posts: 948
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 23:26

Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by Bomag »

c2R wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:56
Bryn666 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:36 I would've personally stolen the ROI yellow edge line markings and done something else for parking restrictions. I really like the yellow hard shoulder line, it makes it crystal clear that isn't a running lane.
I have to say that I prefer the use of yellow to indicate temporary layouts through roadworks, as is common in some continental countries. For hard shoulders, I've always been a big fan of the original Lancashire red surfacing - making it crystal clear that it isn't a running lane!

Image
The use of anything other than white for delineation is always going to reduce preview time and therefore safety. Doubly so for road works. Germany, who is the major use of yellow markings at works, has a major headache in that none of the in-vehicle system
is, or is likely to work, with picking out temp yellow from normal white. Mobile eye already works with Chapter 8 TTM on HSDC and we will see what a certain German OEM has to say next week.
User avatar
SouthWest Philip
Member
Posts: 3478
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2002 19:35
Location: Evesham, Worcestershire

Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by SouthWest Philip »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:18 If you look at the road lists for Ireland (Republic), you'll notice that there are gaps in the N-road list. For the primary routes, there is no N34-39 and no N41-49, while the secondary routes peter out at N87 (there are also some defunct numbers available for reuse). It should therefore be fairly easy to integrate the NI network into an all-Ireland system, indeed the probable routes of some N-roads near the border can be easily surmised (yes, N2, I'm looking at you, and N54, stop trying to hide at the back. N16, I know where you're going and I can see what your ambitions are, N12).
Yes, NI's roads could clearly be accommodated within the Republic's system.

I'd also be tempted to reclassify the existing N10, which is a rather wasted 'nice' number and use it for the Belfast to (London)Derry route.

And maybe rationalise some numbers in the west of Ireland by applying the N20/M20 all the way from Cork to (London)Derry?

I think N99 could be a good replacement for the NI A2, although parts would struggle to justify more than R-road status.

From the SABRE Wiki: N2 :

The N2 is the main road running north-northwest of Dublin to Monaghan, beyond which it connects at the border with the A5 to Derry.


The N2 starts at the Finglas Interchange M50 J5 and runs northwest past the Airport logistics park. The first 4.5 km of the route is D3 HQDC to J2 with the R135, where there is a lane drop and the route continues for 13 km as the D2M M2, which crosses

... Read More
User avatar
bothar
Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 22:50
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Reunification & Transport

Post by bothar »

SouthWest Philip wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 19:38 Yes, NI's roads could clearly be accommodated within the Republic's system.

I'd also be tempted to reclassify the existing N10, which is a rather wasted 'nice' number and use it for the Belfast to (London)Derry route.

And maybe rationalise some numbers in the west of Ireland by applying the N20/M20 all the way from Cork to (London)Derry?

I think N99 could be a good replacement for the NI A2, although parts would struggle to justify more than R-road status.
There was a thread on this before and others before that. One major issue identified was a low number for the Belfast Derry route, which would subsume the M2 and A6, recycling the N10 was one idea.

The N20 could end on the N2 at Strabane.
The A2 should be National Secondary on the same basis as other coastal roads on the West coast. It might make sense to break it in two at Belfast though.
"I intend to always travel a different road"
Ibn Battuta 1304-1368
Post Reply