Reunification & Transport
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Reunification & Transport
With the recent news from Northern Ireland, it's looking increasingly likely that one day we may see Irish reunification. It's becoming a matter of when, rather than if. But rather than getting into a debate over reunification, let's imagine a world where the border poll happens and NI votes to leave. What do we think the implications for roads policy in the new unified country are?
(Note: Sorry for making a new thread. I thought that might be more appropriate than resurfacing a 17 year old thread on the topic)
I case see two scenarios for the future of NI in a reunified Ireland: complete reunification or devolved reunification.
In the event of the devolved latter, I would imagine NI and the Republic would keep separate road number schemes, however that Motorways would be brought into line with each other to remove duplicates (maybe a bit like Scotland where 7, 8 and 9 are reserved for Ulster motorways and 1-6 are for Republic motorways). I can see a case where A roads might be renumbered N roads as well, but that may create difficulties if there's a lack of numbers left. More below. In terms of road signs & highway code, I would imagine NI keeping the UK standards as it does now, eventually migrating some things over, such as adopting metric units. In terms of number plates, presumably the NI DVLA would keep its current system going in that case, but GB plates would need a GB sticker and IRL plates would be able to be transferred between jurisdictions as at present.
In the case of complete reunification, I imagine the whole system becomes a headache. Firstly, MABC would need to become MNRL, with many numbers already claimed. Some choices are obvious (A3 -> N12), but others less so (e.g. A6). It seems odd to me that a country planning for eventual reunification designed a numbering system which didn't really account for Northern Irish roads. Although the Irish Highway Code could be adopted straight away, road signage would need to be gradually brought into line too. Not just metric signs but all road signs (such as adopting yellow diamonds, yellow verge lines and single continuous lines). Or maybe the Irish would take this opportunity to get in line with the rest of Europe and adopt the red triangles for their network? Finally, all NI plates would need to be re-registered to match the Irish system. Maybe B For Antrim (Belfast), DO (Down), A (Armagh), DE (Co. Londonderry), F (Fermanagh) and TY (Tyrone).
This is all my personal speculation, though. Are there other imaginable futures for the relationship? Would that have a different impact on the roads policy? Or could the above situations produce different outcomes than I've suggested. Interesting to see your responses.
Re: Reunification & Transport
Well, they should certainly look at establishing some connectivity down the western side, irrespective of whether reunification happens or not.pjr10th wrote: ↑Mon May 09, 2022 16:56 Hello all,
With the recent news from Northern Ireland, it's looking increasingly likely that one day we may see Irish reunification. It's becoming a matter of when, rather than if. But rather than getting into a debate over reunification, let's imagine a world where the border poll happens and NI votes to leave. What do we think the implications for roads policy in the new unified country are?
My partner is going to spend the summer in Ireland undertaking research for her PhD. The locations she hopes to visit include Belfast, Derry, Lifford, Galway, Mullingar, Portlaois, Ennis, and Cork. This is all supposed to happen on public transport, because universities and research councils appear to think that everything can be done that way, and that driving cars is bad.
She's already decided that it will be easier to do two trips - one to the North, and one to the South, returning to Leeds in between - than to do the whole itinerary in one go.
EDITED TYPO
Re: Reunification & Transport
I am the most Europhile person imaginable, but I would strongly argue for the yellow diamonds. I have made many cross-border journeys at night and they are simply more visible. On the NI side they are adding yellow backing boards on signs, which is not needed in the ROI. Single continuous lines remain in use in the ROI but hazard markings are also now widely used, I think this is appropriate as it gives you a set of tools to use depending on the road. Yellow verge lines make sense too, you either use yellow on the middle or on the side, why not use the colour to differentiate?
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Re: Reunification & Transport
Most roads legislation and things like CDM are already NI specific and are not UK wide. The republic use UK/GB standards as the basis for theirs, while the signs themselves are different design guidance and best practice are very similar. In terms of numbering the cost will be significant. There is no practical need for any change - the current systems is clear and works. As for the DVLA there will be a significant number of people who will have their current driving licence, as with the UK passport, prised from their cold dead hands.
So the impact is likely to be no different than now. There is NI legislation within the UK. There would be NI legislation within Ireland.
Re: Reunification & Transport
It's worth noting that driving licences in the north, issued by the DVA in Coleraine, aren't the same as GB driving licences issued by the DVLA in Swansea.
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Re: Reunification & Transport
I expect the EU would push Ireland the other-way adoption of the Vienna Convention. Able to sell it as a genuine merger not a take over.bothar wrote: ↑Mon May 09, 2022 23:02I am the most Europhile person imaginable, but I would strongly argue for the yellow diamonds. I have made many cross-border journeys at night and they are simply more visible. On the NI side they are adding yellow backing boards on signs, which is not needed in the ROI. Single continuous lines remain in use in the ROI but hazard markings are also now widely used, I think this is appropriate as it gives you a set of tools to use depending on the road. Yellow verge lines make sense too, you either use yellow on the middle or on the side, why not use the colour to differentiate?
Johnny Mo
Re: Reunification & Transport
IIRC NI had mandator photo driving licences since the troubles.
Johnny Mo
Re: Reunification & Transport
No need - yellow diamonds are compliant with the Vienna Convention. It states that warning signs should either be equilateral triangles with red borders or yellow diamonds. The Wikipedia article you linked to mentions it.JohnnyMo wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 08:54I expect the EU would push Ireland the other-way adoption of the Vienna Convention. Able to sell it as a genuine merger not a take over.bothar wrote: ↑Mon May 09, 2022 23:02I am the most Europhile person imaginable, but I would strongly argue for the yellow diamonds. I have made many cross-border journeys at night and they are simply more visible. On the NI side they are adding yellow backing boards on signs, which is not needed in the ROI. Single continuous lines remain in use in the ROI but hazard markings are also now widely used, I think this is appropriate as it gives you a set of tools to use depending on the road. Yellow verge lines make sense too, you either use yellow on the middle or on the side, why not use the colour to differentiate?
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- Chris Bertram
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Re: Reunification & Transport
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
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From the SABRE Wiki: N2 :
The N2 is the main road running north-northwest of Dublin to Monaghan, beyond which it connects at the border with the A5 to Derry.
The N2 starts at the Finglas Interchange M50 J5 and runs northwest past the Airport logistics park. The first 4.5 km of the route is D3 HQDC to J2 with the R135, where there is a lane drop and the route continues for 13 km as the D2M M2, which crosses
Re: Reunification & Transport
ROI of course introduced diamonds in 1956 - and they looked westwards for inspiration. As a result there is a lot of American influence even on today's Irish road design; notably Stop signs everywhere, huge grassy medians on dual carriageways, and hard shoulders on all major roads. Economic pressures have stopped some of that but you still see the remnants.Chris5156 wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 10:26No need - yellow diamonds are compliant with the Vienna Convention. It states that warning signs should either be equilateral triangles with red borders or yellow diamonds. The Wikipedia article you linked to mentions it.JohnnyMo wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 08:54I expect the EU would push Ireland the other-way adoption of the Vienna Convention. Able to sell it as a genuine merger not a take over.bothar wrote: ↑Mon May 09, 2022 23:02
I am the most Europhile person imaginable, but I would strongly argue for the yellow diamonds. I have made many cross-border journeys at night and they are simply more visible. On the NI side they are adding yellow backing boards on signs, which is not needed in the ROI. Single continuous lines remain in use in the ROI but hazard markings are also now widely used, I think this is appropriate as it gives you a set of tools to use depending on the road. Yellow verge lines make sense too, you either use yellow on the middle or on the side, why not use the colour to differentiate?
I would've personally stolen the ROI yellow edge line markings and done something else for parking restrictions. I really like the yellow hard shoulder line, it makes it crystal clear that isn't a running lane.
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Re: Reunification & Transport
I have to say that I prefer the use of yellow to indicate temporary layouts through roadworks, as is common in some continental countries. For hard shoulders, I've always been a big fan of the original Lancashire red surfacing - making it crystal clear that it isn't a running lane!
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Re: Reunification & Transport
Didn't ROI experiment with orange markings for roadworks? Or did I dream that... Canada uses orange because yellow is reserved for centre lines.c2R wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 11:56I have to say that I prefer the use of yellow to indicate temporary layouts through roadworks, as is common in some continental countries. For hard shoulders, I've always been a big fan of the original Lancashire red surfacing - making it crystal clear that it isn't a running lane!
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
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Re: Reunification & Transport
You say that, but the convention in the RoI is for slower vehicles to pull onto the hard shoulder to allow quicker vehicles to pass. This is very common practice.
I really like that idea too. The solid line has more of "Do not cross except in emergency" look about it than a dashed yellow line.c2R wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 11:56 I have to say that I prefer the use of yellow to indicate temporary layouts through roadworks, as is common in some continental countries. For hard shoulders, I've always been a big fan of the original Lancashire red surfacing - making it crystal clear that it isn't a running lane!
Re: Reunification & Transport
The dashed yellow edge line on N and R roads specifically allows - and on wide single carriageways with shoulders expects! - it though. It is, iirc, an offence to cross a solid yellow line on an Irish motorway except in an emergency.Owain wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 12:38You say that, but the convention in the RoI is for slower vehicles to pull onto the hard shoulder to allow quicker vehicles to pass. This is very common practice.
I really like that idea too. The solid line has more of "Do not cross except in emergency" look about it than a dashed yellow line.c2R wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 11:56 I have to say that I prefer the use of yellow to indicate temporary layouts through roadworks, as is common in some continental countries. For hard shoulders, I've always been a big fan of the original Lancashire red surfacing - making it crystal clear that it isn't a running lane!
The M66 in that image no longer has a red hard shoulder
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
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Re: Reunification & Transport
Ah, sorry - I didn't realise that you were talking specifically about the Irish motorways, partly because I'd forgotten that the yellow line is continuous on such roads!Bryn666 wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 12:45The dashed yellow edge line on N and R roads specifically allows - and on wide single carriageways with shoulders expects! - it though. It is, iirc, an offence to cross a solid yellow line on an Irish motorway except in an emergency.Owain wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 12:38You say that, but the convention in the RoI is for slower vehicles to pull onto the hard shoulder to allow quicker vehicles to pass. This is very common practice.
I really like that idea too. The solid line has more of "Do not cross except in emergency" look about it than a dashed yellow line.c2R wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 11:56 I have to say that I prefer the use of yellow to indicate temporary layouts through roadworks, as is common in some continental countries. For hard shoulders, I've always been a big fan of the original Lancashire red surfacing - making it crystal clear that it isn't a running lane!
Re: Reunification & Transport
The exception, of course, would be the motorways. I think these would be renumbered relatively sharply, and the reason why isn't hard to see; because a road changing its designationas it enters the former United Kingdom wouldn't cause too much confusion, but two M1s within one sovereign state that don't share any obvious continuity certainly could.
As for what new designations Ulster's motorways would assume, I'd go with the following:
M1 = M16
M2 = M13
On the basis that these routes have relative continuity with the ROI's N16 and N13, respectively . The NI M5 has no obvious continuity with anything in the ROI, so it's designation, as a spur to the A2, would presumably be determined by whatever identity that road would end up assuming under reunification.
- Richard Nixon
Re: Reunification & Transport
As for the rest of the north, as a SABREistic exercise, I'd love to renumber the lot so that it makes some sort of logical sense.... but there's no financial incentive to do so...
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Re: Reunification & Transport
The use of anything other than white for delineation is always going to reduce preview time and therefore safety. Doubly so for road works. Germany, who is the major use of yellow markings at works, has a major headache in that none of the in-vehicle systemc2R wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 11:56I have to say that I prefer the use of yellow to indicate temporary layouts through roadworks, as is common in some continental countries. For hard shoulders, I've always been a big fan of the original Lancashire red surfacing - making it crystal clear that it isn't a running lane!
is, or is likely to work, with picking out temp yellow from normal white. Mobile eye already works with Chapter 8 TTM on HSDC and we will see what a certain German OEM has to say next week.
- SouthWest Philip
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Re: Reunification & Transport
Yes, NI's roads could clearly be accommodated within the Republic's system.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 11:18 If you look at the road lists for Ireland (Republic), you'll notice that there are gaps in the N-road list. For the primary routes, there is no N34-39 and no N41-49, while the secondary routes peter out at N87 (there are also some defunct numbers available for reuse). It should therefore be fairly easy to integrate the NI network into an all-Ireland system, indeed the probable routes of some N-roads near the border can be easily surmised (yes, N2, I'm looking at you, and N54, stop trying to hide at the back. N16, I know where you're going and I can see what your ambitions are, N12).
I'd also be tempted to reclassify the existing N10, which is a rather wasted 'nice' number and use it for the Belfast to (London)Derry route.
And maybe rationalise some numbers in the west of Ireland by applying the N20/M20 all the way from Cork to (London)Derry?
I think N99 could be a good replacement for the NI A2, although parts would struggle to justify more than R-road status.
From the SABRE Wiki: N2 :
The N2 is the main road running north-northwest of Dublin to Monaghan, beyond which it connects at the border with the A5 to Derry.
The N2 starts at the Finglas Interchange M50 J5 and runs northwest past the Airport logistics park. The first 4.5 km of the route is D3 HQDC to J2 with the R135, where there is a lane drop and the route continues for 13 km as the D2M M2, which crosses
Re: Reunification & Transport
There was a thread on this before and others before that. One major issue identified was a low number for the Belfast Derry route, which would subsume the M2 and A6, recycling the N10 was one idea.SouthWest Philip wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 19:38 Yes, NI's roads could clearly be accommodated within the Republic's system.
I'd also be tempted to reclassify the existing N10, which is a rather wasted 'nice' number and use it for the Belfast to (London)Derry route.
And maybe rationalise some numbers in the west of Ireland by applying the N20/M20 all the way from Cork to (London)Derry?
I think N99 could be a good replacement for the NI A2, although parts would struggle to justify more than R-road status.
The N20 could end on the N2 at Strabane.
The A2 should be National Secondary on the same basis as other coastal roads on the West coast. It might make sense to break it in two at Belfast though.
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