East Leeds Orbital Route

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stu531
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Re: East Leeds Orbital Route

Post by stu531 »

But in which case, how long will it be before they are cries that it's been under-engineered? Much like the A1237 over at York; granted it's D2, but it still has at-grade junctions that may well clog up pretty quickly.

I can see the Temple Park area getting absolutely rammed with traffic soon - way more than it is now.
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c2R
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Re: East Leeds Orbital Route

Post by c2R »

Some photos:

MLLR from Austhorpe
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MLLR and new development behind
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Rbt between Austhorpe and Railway line
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MLLR bridge over railway
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jackal
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Re: East Leeds Orbital Route

Post by jackal »

stu531 wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:44 But in which case, how long will it be before they are cries that it's been under-engineered? Much like the A1237 over at York; granted it's D2, but it still has at-grade junctions that may well clog up pretty quickly.
It is really a wasted opportunity. There has been official recognition that the north of leeds has terrible access to the strategic network, with long term plans to extend the M65 across to the A1(M). The problem is we're talking very long term, if it happens at all.

A more pragmatic approach would've been to say 'hold your horses - do we really need all these nasty flat junctions?' For pennies, relative to building an entirely separate route, we could have had the first third of an expressway-standard bypass for northern Leeds. As it is, yes it is dualled so something of an improvement relative to the woefully substandard corresponding part of A6120, but still far from adequate for a ring road of a city of this size.

You can see the same 'one hand doesn't know what the other is doing' syndrome on the other side of the Pennines. You have strategic studies trying to work out what they're going to do to get traffic from the extended M67 to the M56. At the same time you have two local authority schemes (one under construction, one in planning) that will complete an outer bypass of this route at massive (£750m+) cost, but with deliberately congestion-inducing traffic lights to deter strategic traffic!

The DfT need to learn to put 2 and 2 together.
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Re: East Leeds Orbital Route

Post by Bryn666 »

jackal wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:19 The DfT need to learn to put 2 and 2 together.
We will all be long dead before that happens. Even traffic signs policy managed to contradict itself on numerous occasions.
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Re: East Leeds Orbital Route

Post by LeedsKing »

North Leeds not being treated as an isolated island would be lovely. Either we build a lot of new road capacity, disrupting nimby's etc, or we do with less and have road pricing to put off peak users. And I don't meana zonal congestion charge, I mean individual electronic toll points like Sweden or Norway, where people who live in the zone pay the same.
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East Leeds Orbital Road

Post by Berk »

I’m surprised there doesn’t seem to have been any discussion about this scheme, so I created this post. The main scheme webpage is here.

The main aim of the scheme is to build a D2 bypass of the A6120 in east Leeds. The current route would then, not be downgraded exactly, but be made more ped/cycle-friendly - become a cycle-superhighway, essentially, but still with motor traffic. As well as signalling ALL junctions.
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Achmelvic
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Re: East Leeds Orbital Road

Post by Achmelvic »

There's already a thread ;-)
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Berk
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Re: East Leeds Orbital Road

Post by Berk »

Achmelvic wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 16:04 There's already a thread ;-)
To be fair, that was a very long time ago. I did search, honest. :laugh:

Anyway, it's been approved now, and should start construction sometime next year.
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Re: East Leeds Orbital Route

Post by NICK 647063 »

Glad we seem to have got this topic back on one thread

It’s a much needed scheme which will nicely remove the A6120 out of Crossgates sadly the new road will have many roundabouts and a 50 limit, the A64 roundabout is huge and will have quite a number of signals on it, which from the start looks problematic I really do think this one should have been a full GSJ as both roads here will be very busy.

For me this road will finally tidy up the A6120/A64 multiplex meaning the A64 can claim back it’s seacroft bypass, with the rest of the old A6120 becoming a B road with a 30 limit, the reclaimed A64 section which is currently 70 will be reduced to 40......

When I attended the consultation I was please to see both the A64 roundabouts at each end of the current multiplex will have signals installed to make sure the A64 in and out of Leeds gets more priority than traffic on the old A6120!

All in all it’s a big scheme which will see a huge expansion of East Leeds but will also highlight a very weak section of A64 between the new A6120 and Bramham A1(M) that’s really going to become a very congested section.
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Re: East Leeds Orbital Route

Post by Berk »

NICK 647063 wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 17:05 sadly the new road will have many roundabouts and a 50 limit,
True, but it will be dual. Tbh, I sometimes think the reason they include so many roundabouts is precisely so the case is made for a lower limit from the start. Do they need all of those junctions?? Isn't that what the old road is there for??
the A64 roundabout is huge and will have quite a number of signals on it, which from the start looks problematic I really do think this one should have been a full GSJ as both roads here will be very busy.
Congestion that didn't need to be there, from the start.

You can tell I don't have much faith in signalised junctions.
For me this road will finally tidy up the A6120/A64 multiplex meaning the A64 can claim back it’s seacroft bypass, with the rest of the old A6120 becoming a B road with a 30 limit, the reclaimed A64 section which is currently 70 will be reduced to 40......
Same again, you knew this was going to happen.
When I attended the consultation I was please to see both the A64 roundabouts at each end of the current multiplex will have signals installed to make sure the A64 in and out of Leeds gets more priority than traffic on the old A6120!
Makes a change.
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Re: East Leeds Orbital Route

Post by Berk »

jackal wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:19
stu531 wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:44 But in which case, how long will it be before they are cries that it's been under-engineered? Much like the A1237 over at York; granted it's D2, but it still has at-grade junctions that may well clog up pretty quickly.
It is really a wasted opportunity. There has been official recognition that the north of leeds has terrible access to the strategic network, with long term plans to extend the M65 across to the A1(M). The problem is we're talking very long term, if it happens at all.

A more pragmatic approach would've been to say 'hold your horses - do we really need all these nasty flat junctions?' For pennies, relative to building an entirely separate route, we could have had the first third of an expressway-standard bypass for northern Leeds. As it is, yes it is dualled so something of an improvement relative to the woefully substandard corresponding part of A6120, but still far from adequate for a ring road of a city of this size.

You can see the same 'one hand doesn't know what the other is doing' syndrome on the other side of the Pennines. You have strategic studies trying to work out what they're going to do to get traffic from the extended M67 to the M56. At the same time you have two local authority schemes (one under construction, one in planning) that will complete an outer bypass of this route at massive (£750m+) cost, but with deliberately congestion-inducing traffic lights to deter strategic traffic!

The DfT need to learn to put 2 and 2 together.
Like I say, why are there so many roundabout junctions?? Do those roads really need to interface this one, where is the need for it??

Or is it because the road can’t be built without 106/278 money, and won’t get built unless it accesses the developments??

Or... is it because the roads authority has a policy of not permitting NSL for non-trunk roads, and needs to make a safety case for not allowing an NSL limit?? At grade junctions could be the answer.

I think it’s a combination of these.
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Re: East Leeds Orbital Route

Post by Chris5156 »

Berk wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 17:30
NICK 647063 wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 17:05 sadly the new road will have many roundabouts and a 50 limit,
True, but it will be dual. Tbh, I sometimes think the reason they include so many roundabouts is precisely so the case is made for a lower limit from the start. Do they need all of those junctions?? Isn't that what the old road is there for??
No, the new road is there to serve new suburbs, and the roundabouts are there to provide access to them. It's not a bypass, it's what most new roads are these days - development routes, opening up new housing estates and retail parks.
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Johnathan404
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Re: East Leeds Orbital Route

Post by Johnathan404 »

Berk wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 18:16 Or... is it because the roads authority has a policy of not permitting NSL for non-trunk roads, and needs to make a safety case for not allowing an NSL limit?? At grade junctions could be the answer.

I think it’s a combination of these.
What a strange conspiracy theory.
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Berk
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Re: East Leeds Orbital Route

Post by Berk »

Johnathan404 wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 18:41
Berk wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 18:16 Or... is it because the roads authority has a policy of not permitting NSL for non-trunk roads, and needs to make a safety case for not allowing an NSL limit?? At grade junctions could be the answer.

I think it’s a combination of these.
What a strange conspiracy theory.
I don’t think it’s strange or even a conspiracy. Just a reflection on human behaviour. A road safety officer would want to apply the guidance in Circular 01/2013, sec 6.3.

If a case can be made for a lower limit, why would they not do so?? A development route, with at grade junctions, it even sounds like it would be within the scope of a 40 limit.
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Re: East Leeds Orbital Route

Post by Chris5156 »

Berk wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 19:07
Johnathan404 wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 18:41
Berk wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 18:16 Or... is it because the roads authority has a policy of not permitting NSL for non-trunk roads, and needs to make a safety case for not allowing an NSL limit?? At grade junctions could be the answer.

I think it’s a combination of these.
What a strange conspiracy theory.
I don’t think it’s strange or even a conspiracy. Just a reflection on human behaviour.
I’m with Johnathan. It’s both strange and a conspiracy theory.
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Re: East Leeds Orbital Route

Post by Bryn666 »

It's designed as a 50 limit because it is a distributor road for new development. Any engineer proposing roundabouts purely so they could lower a speed limit would be laughed out of the design office down to the job centre.

It's tin foil, sorry.
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Re: East Leeds Orbital Route

Post by Berk »

I’ll take your word for it, but is that really what the client would want?? 🤨
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Re: East Leeds Orbital Road

Post by c2R »

Berk wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 16:51
Achmelvic wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 16:04 There's already a thread ;-)
To be fair, that was a very long time ago. I did search, honest. :laugh:

Anyway, it's been approved now, and should start construction sometime next year.
Ha, I only took photos of the construction of the MLLR section in June!

On the wiki, we do have pages for some roads and schemes such as the ELOR, that if you look on the Talk page will link to existing forum threads....
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From the SABRE Wiki: ELOR :

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Bryn666
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Re: East Leeds Orbital Route

Post by Bryn666 »

A developer gets sod all say in things like speed limits. The highway authority issues planning conditions that include NMU provision and road safety elements.

The developer will have provided a transport assessment that says that x house units can be adequately served by a 50mph D2 with roundabouts. Highway authority will say " OK, what about the interface with the existing network" as a condition and then a plan is developed in detail.

No one sits in an office twiddling a moustache going "we will make this road 50 to annoy people because we're TEH EVULZ". It's just paranoid ABD rubbish.
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Re: East Leeds Orbital Route

Post by NICK 647063 »

No, the new road is there to serve new suburbs, and the roundabouts are there to provide access to them. It's not a bypass, it's what most new roads are these days - development routes, opening up new housing estates and retail parks.
This is very true although it will have the bypass element too as it will remove the through traffic from Crossgates that is the big sweetener developers use these days and it did certainly get the community on side.

I can see how this road will nicely get new traffic from the huge developments to the M1 if heading south but really all this extra traffic if heading NW will have to contend with the A6120 north of Leeds, if it’s heading East or North it will be on the single carriageway A64 to J44 or if heading into Leeds which I guess many will the A64 York Road will be feeling the strain!

I did note last week that the new retail park called “the springs” at Thorpe Park at the M1J46 is to get 2 new express bus services the X26 and X27 both serving Thorpe Park then various parts of crossgates then limited stop on the A64 into Leeds City centre in under 20 mins, I guess a big bonus of these developments are new public transport routes which I suspect Leeds City council will be hoping the commuters will try and use rather than clog the A64 up further.
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