East Leeds Orbital Route

[NICK 647063]

Just dragging up an old topic, so the latest update is construction is due to start on this orbital road next spring with opening in 2021, while it's a welcome road it seems quite a wasted opportunity as in it's completely a 50mph dual carriageway, with all at grade roundabouts, the Junction proposed with the A64 York road is a massive signal controlled roundabout with the dual carriageway passing through the middle of the roundabout, I can see this roundabout causing big delays to the A64 and the orbital road which will become the A6120 I guess.

At the South end at J46 of the M1 it will smash straight into the roundabout and also with the new Thorpe park shopping centre will be very congested I guess, the bonus I guess is relief of ring road traffic for crossgates and seacroft, it will also mean the A64/A6120 multiplex can just become the A64 although I assume the 70mph limit will be reduced.

The other problem area I foresee is the A64 between this new orbital road and the A1(M), it's only 4 miles but is the main signed route to the A1(M) north and York, it's already just had its limit reduced to 50 as it has a very poor safety record and also suffers peek congestion which seems to get worse year by year with the growth of Leeds, add in this massive housing area and I would guess the A64 will become a massive issue, traffic is already above pre M1 east Leeds levels, I just think dualling of the A64 should have been included as this orbital route is simply to open up development and is paid for by developers in the long run then the A64 could have also had some funding from this, anyway hopefully we will see some progress shortly.

[jackal]

Junction drawings etc here. It's all regular roundabouts except the hamburger at the A64.

[LeedsKing]

I'm sure I will have some quibbles, but my initial reaction is HOORAY. Yes it has roundabouts with the frequency of Milton Keynes but it is 50mph instead of 40, and I will be doing 65 on it at night, and 40 across the quiet roundabouts, once I've learned the racing line.

This should have been done 20 years ago. East Leeds has had no upgrades since the A6120 was built. When was that?

[LeedsKing]

I, and many others do not want to get to the M1 except to cross it at right angles, we are going south east, which means A1 southbound.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/53.79 ... 2d53.52282

This will be the fastest route south east when the thing is finished. Misses Garforth out, but still sends you to the old A1 - A63. Because the A1/M1 junction does not allow east-west travel.

I hate the A63 route anyway. I end up using M62, Woodlesford and then Bullerthorpe Lane to Colton. Or I just use the A64, which is another road taking you north when you want to go south, and vice versa.

Aire basin and Castleford are in the way!

[LeedsKing]

Still, the bats, frogs, hedgehogs, walkers, cyclists, etc. have been thought of, with very little pleasing of the POWERRR Clarksonists. But he wouldn't "pave over England." Most people would say that my ideal roads plans constitute doing so.

[stu531]

This will be the fastest route south east when the think is finished. Misses Garforth out, but still sends you to the old A1 - A63. Because the A1/M1 junction does not allow east-west travel.

This post reminds me of one some time ago:

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/vie ... =1&t=18277

I still think there is merit in this. Truvelo's map (5th post on above thread) was a nice rendition of a proposed free flow.

[Owain]

Is there any other airport of similar size with as bad road connections as Leeds-Bradford?

The only comparably bad one I can think of is Cardiff Wales Airport (as opposed to Cardiff, Pennsylvania, presumably).

Twelve years on, the answer is Bristol!

[NICK 647063]

It would seem this road is going to start construction next spring 2018, LCC have submitted a full planning application for the road which is certain to get full approval!

The new road will be a dual carriageway with a 50 limit throughout, all junctions will be at grade roundabouts, the largest junction is the one where the new road meets the A64 York Road, due to the very high flows on the A64 this junction is described as a signal controlled hamburger roundabout, basically the new ring road passes through the middle of the roundabout with 3 lanes each way and the A64 goes around it with 2 lanes each way.

Also a scheme is in place to deal with the old A6120 once the bypass of it opens, this includes all 40 sections reduced to 30 and even a 20 through the centre of crossgates, sadly this also includes the section of the A6120 that is currently shared with the A64 getting its 70 limit reduced to 40, it will finally end the multiplex here and will just become the primary A64 remaining dual carriageway, also both roundabouts at the A64/A6120 seacroft and A64/barwick road will become signal controlled, this is described in the plans as a way of making sure the A64 gets a clear priority to flow between Leeds city centre and York meaning traffic on the old A6120 arms of the roundabouts will be on very limited green time so to discourage it as a through route.......I do believe this will be great for the A64 though as these junctions are always busy and will cut a good few minutes off journeys.

The one thing I feel is really overlooked is the section of A64 between the new ring road and the A1(M) J44 it's already hugely busy but add in this new ring road and the 5000 plus homes getting built here and it's clear it needs dualling! It's the main route in and out of Leeds to York, Scarborough and the A1(M) North and it's simply a very poor link to such a big city like Leeds, but apart from that it seems good progress is happening.

[c2R]

I think that no roundabout should be built as a hamburger from day one - it's obvious that some sort of GSJ is required if they're already considering that level of infrastructure!

The works at the M1 end are already underway as part of the Thorpe Park extension, and plans for the route were recently made available. You're right that the A64 to meet the A1(M) at Malton desparately needs dualling, and this, coupled with the new housing in the area will make this worse!

[Truvelo]

This is the sort of road if planned in the early 70s would be the something found in new towns of the time. It would be an NSL expressway with GSJs designed for high speed efficiency. How times have changed

[Debaser]

I think that no roundabout should be built as a hamburger from day one - it's obvious that some sort of GSJ is required if they're already considering that level of infrastructure!

I've got to agree. It's almost like they've gone through the full range of improvements we'd make to a roundabout that already existed. Roundabout overcapacity, add lanes on entries and circulatory. Five to ten years on, overcapacity again, signalise. Another five to ten years and reached capacity, add freeflow lefts and make into a hamburger.

Actually starting with what is usually the end point in terms of junction upgrades - and essentially leaving them nowhere to go - should suggest that this needs to be a GSJ from the start, as you say.

[wrinkly]

This is the sort of road if planned in the early 70s would be the something found in new towns of the time. It would be an NSL expressway with GSJs designed for high speed efficiency.

A grade separated version of it was proposed more recently than that - early 1990s IIRC. But it was a trunk road then.

[NICK 647063]

I do totally agree with the above comments about the A64 Junction the absolute complexity of it from day one proves it should be totally grade separated, the A64 especially during the morning and evening peaks is a constant stream of traffic, add in it meeting a new orbital road which will also become very busy and this junction will be a major sticking point and a likely accident spot! For the huge space allocated for this hamburger you could get a decent GSJ on that land, I'm sure the extra cost would be very worth it! We all know the cheapest time to install such things is before opening the road, as an upgrade in years to come will be a massive headache.

[NICK 647063]

So tonight I visited the public consultation in crossgates, massive turnout mainly of locals moaning about the proposed housing but as the guys in charge rightly told them this isn't a housing consultation it was only for the new road!

After waiting a long time I finally spoke to a chap from Leeds highways, my main question was about the numbering as they only ever refer to the new road as the orbital road so he stated this would definitely be the A6120 as expected, he then said the old A6120 was to become the B6199 throughout, so I then raised the point about the A64 section that is currently a multiplex with the A6120 and he tried to tell me that it would all be the B6199, after quite some explaining and pointing on the map he got my point that the A64 must take over the multiplex section as a primary A road would not be carried by the B6199! He did note that down, it did slightly worry me that he was unsure.

Anyway looking myself it seems clear that someone understands as in the plans it states the importance of keeping the A64 flowing on this section, I did also raise the point that the currant national speed limit multiplex A6120/A64 is one of the safest roads in Leeds and bringing it down to 40 and opening it up more to pedestrians would likely increase accidents on which he agreed but they want to make it more visually pleasing.....I got the expected response from one highways guy that York road will likely see a decrease in traffic as some might use the orbital road to get to the M1 then into Leeds via the A63, of course I explained that that decision would have been made back at J44 of the A1(M) if wanting that route, the orbital route is a 50 limit with roundabouts and a pain of a junction with the M1 as is the A63 so they would hardly pick that route over the A64 into Leeds as it's way longer, I did also make the point that a likely 10,000 extra cars are likely to use York road into Leeds so a decrease was impossible.

As for the A64 Junction they admitted it's huge and complex, I stated it should be a GSJ and they agreed but sadly the budget just could not make this possible, it's clear to me they understand this junction could become a massive pain, along with the single carriageway A64.

All in all I made my points but felt it mostly fell on deaf ears with people who lacked a passion for road improvements and just went by a script, only time will tell.

[Owain]

I did also raise the point that the currant national speed limit multiplex A6120/A64 is one of the safest roads in Leeds and bringing it down to 40 and opening it up more to pedestrians would likely increase accidents on which he agreed but they want to make it more visually pleasing.....

40??

Is that a serious proposal? That's the only really good stretch of road that Leeds has got!

[NICK 647063]

40??

Is that a serious proposal? That's the only really good stretch of road that Leeds has got!

Sadly yes although the guy tonight said he was unsure Its in the planning application that it will become 40 as they want to remove the crash barriers and fences, like I say its also one of the safest sections of roads in Leeds!

[Owain]

Its in the planning application that it will become 40 as they want to remove the crash barriers and fences, like I say its also one of the safest sections of roads in Leeds!

What a shame! It has a gloriously old-fashioned look about it (i.e. not sanitised). And it's fun to drive, unlike any of the roads.

Perhaps they've seen me driving on it, and that's why they're slashing the limit.

[Chris5156]

As for the A64 Junction they admitted it's huge and complex, I stated it should be a GSJ and they agreed but sadly the budget just could not make this possible, it's clear to me they understand this junction could become a massive pain, along with the single carriageway A64.

And therein lies the problem with so many local authority road schemes.

I wonder why they have gone straight for such a complex signalised junction, and whether it would instead be possible to provide a layout that has provision for future grade separation? The question then would be which direction the grade separation would take.

Ultimately this is about new housing, though, and the new ring road will be more use as a distributor for new housing estates than as a serious orbital route. The right plan would be an orbital expressway with grade separated junctions and a parallel service road linking the junctions and providing access to adjacent development. But that's not something local authorities can provide.

[Bryn666]

After waiting a long time I finally spoke to a chap from Leeds highways, my main question was about the numbering as they only ever refer to the new road as the orbital road so he stated this would definitely be the A6120 as expected, he then said the old A6120 was to become the B6199 throughout, so I then raised the point about the A64 section that is currently a multiplex with the A6120 and he tried to tell me that it would all be the B6199, after quite some explaining and pointing on the map he got my point that the A64 must take over the multiplex section as a primary A road would not be carried by the B6199! He did note that down, it did slightly worry me that he was unsure.

I hope they are aware the B6199 already exists in Farnworth.

It doesn't need to be classified at all either side of the A64.

[stu531]

I'd love to know what the actual cost is of building a full GSJ versus a signalised at-grade junction. What's the ongoing cost of running traffic lights vs a bridge, plus the fact that the delays caused by the traffic lights has an affect on the economy; granted, minutes or seconds, but surely someone would've modelled the effects by now?

There isn't anything grade separate north of Leeds for some way... I can't think of anything between the A1 and Bingley Bypass or Canal Road, and certainly nothing on the A6120, which itself causes traffic problems.

This is, as mentioned, a wasted opportunity to get some real traffic flow in place. Also, this route provides a genuine alternative to getting traffic from mid-north and north-west Leeds onto the motorway network, so it will see an uplift in traffic.