Botched Roadsigns

[CRB_A46]

I wonder if there’s a TRO for the 1 yard of dual carriageway with a 60 limit...

That also raises an interesting question:

Do you need an NSL sign between a 60mph dual carriageway and 60mph single carriageway?

The section of the A17 between Sutton Bridge and Kings Lynn (S2) has several staggered crossroads with physical separation of the lanes, so creating a short stretch of D1 each time. The speed limit for the whole section is 60mph throughout and is SPECS-enforced, so each D1 stretch has a 60 sign at the start and an NSL sign when the road goes back to S2.

[Andy33gmail]

I wonder if there’s a TRO for the 1 yard of dual carriageway with a 60 limit...

That also raises an interesting question:

Do you need an NSL sign between a 60mph dual carriageway and 60mph single carriageway?

The section of the A17 between Sutton Bridge and Kings Lynn (S2) has several staggered crossroads with physical separation of the lanes, so creating a short stretch of D1 each time. The speed limit for the whole section is 60mph throughout and is SPECS-enforced, so each D1 stretch has a 60 sign at the start and an NSL sign when the road goes back to S2.

Interesting

I wonder whether that's technically enforceable. Speed offences were really specific - "Exceeding the speed limit in a 60". "Exceeding the motorway speed limit". I wonder whether you could be in a position where it wasn't technically possible to prove whether you exceeded the NSL on the S/C or the TRO'ed 60 limit on the D/C. I guess in practice there's one TRO setting 60mph for however many miles, rather than individual ones for each speed limit, and the signage provides adequate guidance of this.

[Stevie D]

I wonder whether that's technically enforceable. Speed offences were really specific - "Exceeding the speed limit in a 60". "Exceeding the motorway speed limit". I wonder whether you could be in a position where it wasn't technically possible to prove whether you exceeded the NSL on the S/C or the TRO'ed 60 limit on the D/C. I guess in practice there's one TRO setting 60mph for however many miles, rather than individual ones for each speed limit, and the signage provides adequate guidance of this.

Average speed measurements can't be used where the section measured crosses more than one speed limit because, as you say, it would then become two or more separate offences. But a spot camera – whether it's a Gatso, Truvelo or Talivan – covers such a short distance that it could certainly be set up to ensure that it was entirely within one jurisdiction.

[Fenlander]

https://www.lynnnews.co.uk/news/new-spe ... 1-8250377/ has a few more details. My take on it is that in my van I'm restricted to 50 on the single carriageway but 60 on the dual (and by signing it like this they have finally admitted they are short bits of dual) so any overlapping sections of average camera have a real problem in terms of enforcement as I could be exceeding the limit in the single (NSL 50 exceeding limit for class of vehicle), the dual (explicit 60) or both. Both limits would be 60 in a car but there would be 2 sections to that - single NSL 60 and dual explicit 60.

[jgharston]

These signs seem a little confused as to which direction they should be indicating.

I approached a roundabout on the A63 travelling towards Hull, and saw a sign pointing < Hull so started indicating left. Only once I was on the roundabout was it clear that the sign was actually the exit sign at the straight-ahead exit.
Found it!

Am I missing something here? You could read the flag sign from before the roundabout, but not see the actual roundabout?

My only excuse is that every prior roundabout on that route had a raised tree-planted island, so you couldn't actually see the junctions signs "through" the roundabout. The GSV does seem clearer than I remember.

[Andy33gmail]

https://www.lynnnews.co.uk/news/new-spe ... 1-8250377/ has a few more details. My take on it is that in my van I'm restricted to 50 on the single carriageway but 60 on the dual (and by signing it like this they have finally admitted they are short bits of dual) so any overlapping sections of average camera have a real problem in terms of enforcement as I could be exceeding the limit in the single (NSL 50 exceeding limit for class of vehicle), the dual (explicit 60) or both. Both limits would be 60 in a car but there would be 2 sections to that - single NSL 60 and dual explicit 60.

If you go fast enough (roughly double the limit), you can prove you did both

[Al__S]

I'm personally of the view that NSL should be scrapped as a concept with speed limits set appropriate to each road, but that's a whole different conversation for a different part of the forum

[Brigham]

Oh, and I've got a feeling this speed limit isn't right. They've tried to be clever but there are no repeaters and no change of speed limit in the other direction.

Don't need repeaters, that road is national speed limit, which becomes 60 at the point that the dual carriageway ends. It's just that some people think that two lanes equals dual carriageway, so a quick idiot reminder has been signed.

The 60 signs are incorrect, unless they specifically refer to the yard-or-so of dual carriageway between the signs and the end of dual carriageway. (Which they don't).
The same situation arose on the A1 in Northumberland, where a number of signs seemed to imply that a 60mph speed limit had been imposed on a road which was automatically 60mph due to the NSL.
They were soon removed.

[Fenlander]

More 60 signs on a single carriageway, the A47 near it's junction with the A1.

[Euan]

Here is the sign on the approach to the A82/A83 junction in Tarbet from the south:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.20219 ... 312!8i6656

The low bridge warning 16 miles along the A82 is no longer necessary now that the Crianlarich bypass has been open for a few years, although in the days before the bypass it would have been more relevant.

[Al__S]

is "not updating a sign" really botching it? scrolling through GSV history shows that the panels not being properly aligned in 2009.

[Euan]

The panels still look poorly aligned in the latest GSV images. I suppose in a way the "botch" is that the sign's information is misleading, like on signs that are poorly designed which makes them "botched".

[Johnathan404]

Pathetic Motorways has detailed how easy it is to walk on to the M275, but I've just realised the signage makes it incredibly easy to accidentally drive on to it too. What an incredibly unclear start to a motorway.

[Bryn666]

Pathetic Motorways has detailed how easy it is to walk on to the M275, but I've just realised the signage makes it incredibly easy to accidentally drive on to it too. What an incredibly unclear start to a motorway.

4 lane approach like that should have a gantry. That's pitiful, but then we know how bad the M275 signs are.

[Truvelo]

There's something wrong here

https://goo.gl/maps/fDtoLoe8iVR2

[Viator]

More 60 signs on a single carriageway, the A47 near it's junction with the A1.

Those have been there for at least 20 years: they're there to enforce the 60 limit that applies on the short dual carriageway (500 m or so) that extends between the two junctions with the A1 and a little way westward beyond. Why they are this far ahead of the first (eastern) roundabout I've no idea, but whoever ordered their installation at that particular point must have had their reasons! (The distance of the signs from the roundabouts is more or less the same in both directions. Did the original plans perhaps provide for a short "lead-in" stretch of dual carriageway at this eastern end too?)

[the cheesecake man]

This sign is half a mile from Colsterworth. The B676 leads into the village. The A1 bypasses it so why does it appear?
[gmap]https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.80258 ... 312!8i6656[/gmap]

[Chris5156]

This sign is half a mile from Colsterworth. The B676 leads into the village. The A1 bypasses it so why does it appear?
[gmap]https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.80258 ... 312!8i6656[/gmap]

So, the sign tells you that turning right leads you to Colsterworth, and the road is the B676, which leads to the A1. That appears to be exactly the case. Seems to be entirely correct to me!

I don't see what it matters that the A1 bypasses Colsterworth, you can still reach it by taking that road as signposted.

[ellandback]

I must admit I would infer from the sign as presented that in order to get to the village I must first take the B676 which will take me to the A1, and thereafter the A1 for some further distance.

If the intention of the sign is to indicate the way to both the village and to the A1, but the former comes first, it might perhaps be more clearly expressed as:

(A1)
Colsterworth B676

In any event shouldn't "A1" be on a primary green patch?

[the cheesecake man]

I must admit I would infer from the sign as presented that in order to get to the village I must first take the B676 which will take me to the A1, and thereafter the A1 for some further distance.

That's exactly what the sign meant to me: to get to Colsterworth follow the B676 then join the A1. What it was supposed to say is normally shown as something like:

Colsterworth B676
The North (A1) on green primary patch