Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

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delinquentwoody
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Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by delinquentwoody » Thu Jun 11, 2020 18:55

Hull and Liverpool are to trial a new 'nudge' pedestrian crossing to reduce accidents, details here.

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hu ... ng-4215734

Unfortunately there seems to be no detail besides an unhelpful illustration on what this scheme entails, but it will run for 2 years. Apparently it uses behavioral science and a 'deeper' understanding to 'nudge' people to use a crossing who wouldn't otherwise.. It has a £193k budget awarded.

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traffic-light-man
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Re: Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by traffic-light-man » Thu Jun 11, 2020 20:03

Our local rag has them branded as 'Gold Star' crossings

The crossing pictured initially in the article is one site that doesn't perform to well in the user behaviour department. It used to be a standard Pelican across what was essentially a bus and taxi lane, which co-acted with another crossing further along the road. It was replaced with a Puffin and the road is now open to anyone under Mayor Anderson's 'buses cause traffic jams so we'll get rid of bus lanes' policy.

To be quite honest with you, I thought the 'Gold Star' proposal would just quietly go away, but perhaps not. I'd rather see them try something like a far-sided toucan with countdown timers at this site first, but that would go against the exclusively nearside policy in the city.
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nowster
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Re: Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by nowster » Thu Jun 11, 2020 21:43

There are situations where nearside pedestrian signals don't work. Newton Street meeting Piccadilly/Portland Street in Manchester is one of them. The sheer number of people crossing there means most can't see the nearside signals. Many have tried to walk in front of a bus there.

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traffic-light-man
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Re: Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by traffic-light-man » Thu Jun 11, 2020 23:19

nowster wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 21:43
There are situations where nearside pedestrian signals don't work.
I completely agree. We've several of these high footfall crossings in Liverpool city centre, and they're all nearside now.

One fix for Hanover Street would be to close it to motor traffic for the centre section where this crossing is sited, eliminating the danger all together. I'm sure that suggestion would ruffle many feathers in many places, mind you.
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Re: Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by EpicChef » Tue Aug 04, 2020 16:31

nowster wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 21:43
There are situations where nearside pedestrian signals don't work.
London is no longer installing puffin crossings with signals on the nearside. They are instead installing "countdown crossings" with signals and pedestrian countdowns on the far side, but I don't know whether it has technology such as pedestrian detection like puffin crossings do.
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Gareth
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Re: Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by Gareth » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:04

traffic-light-man wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 23:19
I completely agree. We've several of these high footfall crossings in Liverpool city centre, and they're all nearside now
And if Liverpool's record for pedestrian crossing accidents is as bad as they claim, maybe the nearside indicators are not all they're cracked up to be.

People still don't bother looking at them. Plus, at high footfall crossings, like the one on Hanover St, pedestrians just carry on blindly following each other onto the crosswalk, long after the red man has come on. Surely a red man directly in front of where they're going would be better. They may still ignore it but at least they'd know the lights weren't in their favour.

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traffic-light-man
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Re: Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by traffic-light-man » Mon Aug 10, 2020 14:19

EpicChef wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 16:31
London is no longer installing puffin crossings with signals on the nearside. They are instead installing "countdown crossings" with signals and pedestrian countdowns on the far side, but I don't know whether it has technology such as pedestrian detection like puffin crossings do.
A crossing fitted with PCaTS (countdowns - of course they needed an acronym) are inherently unable to use on-crossing detection because the PCaTS count down the time where on-crossing detection would vary a red signal. Request cancellation can be used, though.
Gareth wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:04
traffic-light-man wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 23:19
I completely agree. We've several of these high footfall crossings in Liverpool city centre, and they're all nearside now
And if Liverpool's record for pedestrian crossing accidents is as bad as they claim, maybe the nearside indicators are not all they're cracked up to be.

People still don't bother looking at them. Plus, at high footfall crossings, like the one on Hanover St, pedestrians just carry on blindly following each other onto the crosswalk, long after the red man has come on. Surely a red man directly in front of where they're going would be better. They may still ignore it but at least they'd know the lights weren't in their favour.
The same goes for The Strand. Admittedly, the current remodelling scheme will address some of the atrocious junction layout designs installed during 'the big dig' and the L1 development in the 2000s, but I imagine the high footfall crossings will just get the usual double nearside treatment.

On the plus side, the blanket policy of double pedestrian indicators has been abandoned lately, and the 'backwards' nearside sites now have 'LOOK RIGHT' marked on the floor, so they're obviously aware of the 'problem' with the design.
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traffic-light-man
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Re: Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by traffic-light-man » Wed Aug 12, 2020 18:30

Not sure if this would affect their 'Nudge' trials at the Liverpool site, but Liverpool City Council is proposing a bus gate... again. I note that this time the exemptions will include private hire taxis, along with the usual busses, hackney carriages and (I assume) cycles. I'd argue that on the whole, very few other vehicular classes use this stretch of road, so I can't see it having any effect on pedestrian safety at the crossing site.

I'm still with finding an alternative route for buses to reach the bus station and closing the road to through motor traffic at the crossing site, particularly if the more stout pedestrianisation of Bold Street remains post-Coronavirus.
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Re: Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by traffic-light-man » Thu Dec 03, 2020 14:18

The new bus gate has come in to operation this week, but still no sign or new news of the 'Nudge' crossing. NB: Unsurprisingly, that article mainly focusses on the 'negatives', such as the folks who voice their belief that the whole city centre's trade will be in peril because of a TRO (where the already was one), despite the fact 90% of the city centre retail streets are already pedestrianised :roll:

I took a look last night, and given it seemed to be primarily buses, taxis and cycles using the road anyway, and the bus gate only being in one direction, not much had changed. The same vehicle vs. pedestrian conflicts at the crossing were still noticeable.
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Re: Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by Rob590 » Fri Dec 04, 2020 20:52

Definitely read the thread title as "nude pedestrian crossing tiral" :shock:

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Re: Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by Britain » Thu Dec 17, 2020 04:53

traffic-light-man wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 14:18
The new bus gate has come in to operation this week, but still no sign or new news of the 'Nudge' crossing. NB: Unsurprisingly, that article mainly focusses on the 'negatives', such as the folks who voice their belief that the whole city centre's trade will be in peril because of a TRO (where the already was one), despite the fact 90% of the city centre retail streets are already pedestrianised :roll:

I took a look last night, and given it seemed to be primarily buses, taxis and cycles using the road anyway, and the bus gate only being in one direction, not much had changed. The same vehicle vs. pedestrian conflicts at the crossing were still noticeable.
"and authorised vehicles"
Is there any law on what that means? Does the vehicle have to be approved by the council? Does it mean police, council vehicles, recovery vehicles? Who provides the authorisation?

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Re: Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by traffic-light-man » Thu Dec 17, 2020 09:28

Britain wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 04:53
"and authorised vehicles"
Is there any law on what that means? Does the vehicle have to be approved by the council? Does it mean police, council vehicles, recovery vehicles? Who provides the authorisation?
According to the ETRO, the authorised vehicles exemptions are for:
Ranelagh St Bus Gate ETRO exemptions wrote:a National Express Coach operating from or terminating at a scheduled bus stop within the Liverpool One Bus Terminus, a vehicle being used by the Police, Ambulance, Fire Service (in the process of attending an emergency call and whilst displaying blue flashing lights), or Statutory Services, Postal Operator and Local Authority in pursuance with their essential duties being undertaken within the confines of the bus gate itself, or any vehicle being used by Her Majesty’s Prison Service or their contractors for the transportation of prisoners whilst escorted by marked police vehicles
I imagine it's another case of 'unless you know you're authorised, you're not', but quite how it stands up in practice, I'm not sure.

The other bus gate just around the corner has an exception for 'access to St John's Shopping Centre car park' (which can absolutely still be accessed by the signed 'through traffic' route avoiding the bus gate anyway), which renders it pretty much useless.
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Re: Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by DB617 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:29

Having read the title only, I was honestly thinking how useful it would be to have crossing buttons you could 'nudge' into life at present. I've been pressing my fingers into nasty dirty buttons along the A4174 while walking or cycling for weeks, and cringe every time.

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Re: Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by traffic-light-man » Tue Oct 19, 2021 20:43

So, I happened across one of these (or at least, the current incarnation) having the final touches fitted today, which took me by surprise. Having done a quick search, there's news on it from the BBC here and the Liverpool Echo here, the latter with a particularly catchy headline calling them a 'monstrosity'. The one I saw today isn't much like the original concept drawings proposed, but I can see the linear thinking between the two (I think).

My immediate thought was that it looks akin to a failed 1960s experimental crossing. I then noticed all the arrows and signage fitted to the guard rail just to make sure you can't see through it, and I then pondered about how a maintenance engineer is meant to access the pole caps on the signal poles...

I wonder how long this will last?
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Re: Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by Bryn666 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 21:37

I just don't get it. The Hull one is equally as "what".
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Re: Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by Gareth » Tue Oct 19, 2021 22:59

What on earth is that all about? It looks hideous.

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Re: Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by skiddaw05 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:14

traffic-light-man wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 20:43
I wonder how long this will last?
Until a utility company comes and digs it up

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Re: Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by rhyds » Thu Oct 21, 2021 15:35

skiddaw05 wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:14
traffic-light-man wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 20:43
I wonder how long this will last?
Until a utility company comes and digs it up
I'd happily go out with a jackhammer to put a few holes in a water main just to get rid of this thing!
Built for comfort, not speed.

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Re: Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by Bryn666 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 18:36

rhyds wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 15:35
skiddaw05 wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:14
traffic-light-man wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 20:43
I wonder how long this will last?
Until a utility company comes and digs it up
I'd happily go out with a jackhammer to put a few holes in a water main just to get rid of this thing!
It would be helpful to get rid of them before they kill someone. There's already talk that assistance dogs are horrendously confused by these type of things, so they're already increasing social exclusion.
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Re: Nudge pedestrian crossing trial

Post by rhyds » Fri Oct 22, 2021 13:18

It truly looks like someone got absolutely out of their skull on hallucinogenics then fired up Mario Kart and thought it was the best template to use to set up a pedestrian crossing
Built for comfort, not speed.

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