Missing County sign

Discussion about street lighting, road signs, traffic signals - and all other street furniture - goes here.

Moderator: Site Management Team

User avatar
Vierwielen
Member
Posts: 4209
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 21:21
Location: Hampshire

Re: Missing County sign

Post by Vierwielen » Wed Oct 27, 2021 20:43

Steven wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 22:49
Vierwielen wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 22:25
Steven wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 22:06


Of course, there actually is no such thing as a "ceremonial county" - it's a Wikipedia invention. What there are are "Counties for the Purposes of Lieutenancy", which are intended solely for that purpose, which are combinations of Administrative Counties which may or may not have a county council. They also change boundaries regularly, and generally aren't where people think they are - for example, Yorkshire still doesn't exist with this idea; which is clearly insane. The former Metropolitan Counties which have been out of any functional existence now for nearly three times longer than they ever existed are also Counties for the Purposes of Lieutenancy; which is again completely insane.
Primary destinations are arranged by Ceremonial County in this document (Annex A). This document is a .gov.uk file, not a Wikipedia file.
I suggest that you go and read the actual Lieutenancies Act 1997, where the legal term is "County for the purposes of this Act" and so they only exist within the purposes of said Act. Nowhere in the Act does the phrase "ceremonial county" occur.

In addition, the document quoted was created in 2012, long after the first use on Wikipedia in 2004, hence the assertion that the term first appeared on Wikipedia is intact; and it is not the legal or correct name for them.
The citation given in the current Wikipedia article is not particularly authoritative, thereby transgressing Wikipedia's own rule regarding verifyiability. If however they used this page, they would have an authoritative source for the name "ceremonial county", even if they themselves invented the description. This tells me that even though the term "ceremonial county" does not carry any legal weight as per an Act of Parliament or a legal judgement, people know what it means by "habit and repute".

User avatar
Steven
SABRE Maps Coordinator
Posts: 17714
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 20:39
Location: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: Missing County sign

Post by Steven » Thu Oct 28, 2021 09:08

Chris Bertram wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 14:32
"Former" counties don't usually have Lord Lieutenants. Please don't start to believe that what is in the papers is the truth, you're better than that.
Please don't start to accuse me of that sort of thing, you're better than that. I was thinking of public bodies like the Boundary Commission for England, the DLUHC, or even Birmingham City Council or the other examples I actually gave in the post!

So, if Lieutenancy areas are the be-all and end-all, and "former" counties don't have Lord Lieutenants, let's discuss the Lord Lieutenant of Roxburgh, Ettrick and Lauderdale should we? Or maybe the Lord Lieutenant of Berwickshire?
Steven

Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!


User avatar
Chris Bertram
Committee Member
Posts: 13602
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Missing County sign

Post by Chris Bertram » Thu Oct 28, 2021 13:16

Steven wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 09:08
Chris Bertram wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 14:32
"Former" counties don't usually have Lord Lieutenants. Please don't start to believe that what is in the papers is the truth, you're better than that.
Please don't start to accuse me of that sort of thing, you're better than that. I was thinking of public bodies like the Boundary Commission for England, the DLUHC, or even Birmingham City Council or the other examples I actually gave in the post!

So, if Lieutenancy areas are the be-all and end-all, and "former" counties don't have Lord Lieutenants, let's discuss the Lord Lieutenant of Roxburgh, Ettrick and Lauderdale should we? Or maybe the Lord Lieutenant of Berwickshire?
As with many matters, viewers in Scotland have their own programmes. As do those in Wales and Northern Ireland.

But more seriously, UK local governance, as you yourself have often noted, is full of contradictions, and what is a "former" county in one sense may well be a real county in another. It's not neat and tidy, and if it were ever made so, someone would mess it up again in due course.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

User avatar
Steven
SABRE Maps Coordinator
Posts: 17714
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 20:39
Location: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: Missing County sign

Post by Steven » Thu Oct 28, 2021 16:57

Chris Bertram wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 13:16
But more seriously, UK local governance, as you yourself have often noted, is full of contradictions, and what is a "former" county in one sense may well be a real county in another. It's not neat and tidy, and if it were ever made so, someone would mess it up again in due course.
Indeed, which is why using administrative boundaries as a geographical frame of reference just doesn't work; as you'll regularly find people insisting on using one methodology (or regularly two or three picking and choosing from each) in England, another in Scotland, a third in Wales; though at least most people agree regarding Ireland.

Now, if only we had a single set of static geographical reference areas that could be understood by all, all over Great Britain and Ireland. Especially if they'd been mostly static for several hundred years and completely static for getting on for 200 years. And then we could completely decouple administrative boundaries from anything else, and actually run local government in sensible areas...
Steven

Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!


User avatar
Chris Bertram
Committee Member
Posts: 13602
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Missing County sign

Post by Chris Bertram » Thu Oct 28, 2021 17:35

Steven wrote:
Thu Oct 28, 2021 16:57
Now, if only we had a single set of static geographical reference areas that could be understood by all, all over Great Britain and Ireland. Especially if they'd been mostly static for several hundred years and completely static for getting on for 200 years. And then we could completely decouple administrative boundaries from anything else, and actually run local government in sensible areas...
I know what you mean, but the reason they have remained static is that they no longer have any functional significance, so there's no reason to adjust them. In the days when they did have significance, they were adjusted as often as modern boundaries are.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

Post Reply