Unique Traffic Signals

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M4Mark
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by M4Mark » Fri Jan 21, 2022 01:09

Chris Bertram wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 22:58
Are green arrows at a 45⁰ angle permitted these days? I'm sure they used to be quite common.
Yes still permitted and commonly used.

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Gareth
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by Gareth » Sat Jan 22, 2022 00:28

traffic-light-man wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 13:57
The ahead arrow is a bit different, because I think it's a bit more psychological. For instance, on an approach to a T-junction with a right hand arm, and ahead filter on the left side of the full green would make the most sense in my personal opinion. Likewise, for the reverse arrangement with an arm on the left, putting the filter on the right side would make the most sense. At a cross roads with arms on both sides, I'd be looking at putting the ahead filter under the full green.
I prefer in line, personally. It looks neater, removes the "which side?" dilemma and reduces clearance issues.

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MotorwayGuy
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by MotorwayGuy » Sun Jan 23, 2022 21:09

Very unusual split stop line for a dual right turn here:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.37338 ... 384!8i8192

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L.J.D
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by L.J.D » Sun Jan 23, 2022 23:09

I also prefer the in line arrangement also because amount of times you see box signs sticking out bashed and knocked out of alignment by high sided vehicles if they are situated on an island in middle of road. Saves a lot of space.

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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by pjr10th » Sat Jan 29, 2022 18:52

Can pelican crossings have ahead arrows rather than the full ball? This one is located directly next to a junction.

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1868795 ... 312!8i6656

In 2022, the right turn at the junction is also signal controlled, linked into the pelican crossing for the other direction of traffic. Right-turning traffic get green when the pelican goes red (not sure what happens when someone tries to turn right and no-one wants to cross). It's still a pelican with a controlled zone on both sides. This is a set up I've never seen anywhere else.

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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by AlexBr967 » Sat Jan 29, 2022 21:50

pjr10th wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 18:52
Can pelican crossings have ahead arrows rather than the full ball?
Yep. Admittedly it makes more sense here.

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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by pjr10th » Sat Jan 29, 2022 22:41

AlexBr967 wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 21:50
pjr10th wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 18:52
Can pelican crossings have ahead arrows rather than the full ball?
Yep. Admittedly it makes more sense here.
Is that technically a pelican? It's not got zig zags (or legacy stud markings) - I think it might be linked to the junction up ahead?

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L.J.D
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by L.J.D » Sun Jan 30, 2022 09:36

I've posted this before on here but this is something I've never seen on signals before a banned movement only for HGVs

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traffic-light-man
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by traffic-light-man » Sun Jan 30, 2022 18:06

pjr10th wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 18:52
Can pelican crossings have ahead arrows rather than the full ball? This one is located directly next to a junction.

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1868795 ... 312!8i6656

In 2022, the right turn at the junction is also signal controlled, linked into the pelican crossing for the other direction of traffic. Right-turning traffic get green when the pelican goes red (not sure what happens when someone tries to turn right and no-one wants to cross). It's still a pelican with a controlled zone on both sides. This is a set up I've never seen anywhere else.
AFAIK, as long as a signal head complies with TSRGD, it can be used on a crossing, but I imagine the opportunity to use arrows or box signs doesn't appear all too often.

With your example, following the addition of the signalised right turn, does the corresponding crossing still run through the flashing period following red? I can imagine a situation where a Pelican has been integrated into a junction and the zig zags haven't been removed in error, but leaving it as a Pelican seems bizarre.
pjr10th wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 22:41
AlexBr967 wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 21:50
pjr10th wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 18:52
Can pelican crossings have ahead arrows rather than the full ball?
Yep. Admittedly it makes more sense here.
Is that technically a pelican? It's not got zig zags (or legacy stud markings) - I think it might be linked to the junction up ahead?
I agree, it doesn't look like a Pelican to me, and I think we've proven in several threads on here that just because something exists doesn't mean it's correct :P . If it runs through the flashing period, it should be a Pelican (or Pedex) and therefore should also have a zig zags. It looks to me as though it's a former junction that's been modified to a stand alone pedestrian crossing.
L.J.D wrote:
Sun Jan 30, 2022 09:36
I've posted this before on here but this is something I've never seen on signals before a banned movement only for HGVs
Although I think it's clear what's intended here, I just don't like that arrangement as it isn't an exception which is the expected use for 'plate' box sign legends. I'm not sure how else you'd sign that though for inclusion in a box sign though - either way presumably it'd need authorisation to be enforceable.
Simon :driving:

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MotorwayGuy
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by MotorwayGuy » Sun Jan 30, 2022 19:59

The preceding Mellor signals had the same arrangement, but even worse with an erroneous apostrophe! There is no advance warning of the restriction from what I can see and for a car or van driver who doesn't know the area is easily confused as a no left turn. The ADS is also poor and shows the junction as a standard crossroads with a no entry to the right.

As for the "pelican" with no zig-zags, that was definitely a controlled junction previously, if you go back you can see the disused poles and loop detectors.

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Gareth
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by Gareth » Mon Jan 31, 2022 13:42

What's the logic behind zig-zags?

I know they have some restrictions regarding parking/stopping but why are they necessary at explicitly "mid-block" crossings (zebra, panda, puffin etc) but not at junctions? I've seen some mistakes around here where zig-zags have been added to pedestrian crossings that are part of a junction. I know this is incorrect, but the mistake is somewhat understandable where the crossing has been set back from the intersection quite a bit.

Zig-zags were originally only on zebras. Then they added then to pelicans due to the flashing stage which made them similar to zebras. Puffins/toucans didn't have them initially because of the conventional light sequence but then was decided they needed them too.

Is there anything stopping someone putting in a mid-block "pedex" or even puffin without zigzags be merely claiming it's a junction site?

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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by AlexBr967 » Mon Jan 31, 2022 16:40

traffic-light-man wrote:
Sun Jan 30, 2022 18:06
I agree, it doesn't look like a Pelican to me, and I think we've proven in several threads on here that just because something exists doesn't mean it's correct :P . If it runs through the flashing period, it should be a Pelican (or Pedex) and therefore should also have a zig zags. It looks to me as though it's a former junction that's been modified to a stand alone pedestrian crossing.
Honestly, I find this more interesting. A whole new set has been put there now with nearside signals. I will see if they have put any zig-zigs down now when I'm next down there. If not, it's an interesting anomaly.

jnty
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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by jnty » Mon Jan 31, 2022 17:04

There's a vaguely similar situation in Edinburgh at the entrance to West Crosscauseway. The old layout was a toucan allowing cyclists to take a fairly wiggly and unprotected path on the pavement from the opposite, filtered, alleyway. The stop line was maybe a touch ambiguous but it was easy for traffic to turn right on to it without crossing the stop line.

The new layout has the stop line much further back along with dotted lines directing cyclists straight across and into West Crosscauseway, clearly demonstrating that the intent is now to prevent traffic turning right when the light is red. Despite this, the light is often run by right-turners, who presumably draw a moral distinction between crossing the stop line and violating the actual crossing itself.

So really, this doesn't seem to be a 'pure' toucan and is really acting as a slightly esoteric crossroads, yet it still has zigzags and the combined pedestrian/bike signals.

I wonder if this is a specially authorised layout?

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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by pjr10th » Tue Feb 01, 2022 16:55

traffic-light-man wrote:
Sun Jan 30, 2022 18:06
pjr10th wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 18:52
Can pelican crossings have ahead arrows rather than the full ball? This one is located directly next to a junction.

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1868795 ... 312!8i6656

In 2022, the right turn at the junction is also signal controlled, linked into the pelican crossing for the other direction of traffic. Right-turning traffic get green when the pelican goes red (not sure what happens when someone tries to turn right and no-one wants to cross). It's still a pelican with a controlled zone on both sides. This is a set up I've never seen anywhere else.
AFAIK, as long as a signal head complies with TSRGD, it can be used on a crossing, but I imagine the opportunity to use arrows or box signs doesn't appear all too often.

With your example, following the addition of the signalised right turn, does the corresponding crossing still run through the flashing period following red? I can imagine a situation where a Pelican has been integrated into a junction and the zig zags haven't been removed in error, but leaving it as a Pelican seems bizarre.
To be honest it's hard to say. Neither pelican has a flashing amber (even the one that is definitely standalone); I don't think they ever have though, as it's a three lane road, the flashing amber is just replaced with a longer all-red period. This is quite common nowadays, but they're still pelicans as there are no pedestrian sensors (and pedex crossings aren't permitted here yet afaik).

Now you mention it, I think all the lights along there are linked, so despite the zig zags it all operates on a fixed control, rather than necessarily on immediate pedestrian demand. On reflection, I think this is fair to say it's more botched than unique. :lol:

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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by Gareth » Wed Feb 02, 2022 01:34

pjr10th wrote:
Tue Feb 01, 2022 16:55
To be honest it's hard to say. Neither pelican has a flashing amber (even the one that is definitely standalone); I don't think they ever have though, as it's a three lane road, the flashing amber is just replaced with a longer all-red period. This is quite common nowadays, but they're still pelicans as there are no pedestrian sensors (and pedex crossings aren't permitted here yet afaik).
The flashing amber/green man is the main feature of a pelican crossing. If it doesn't have that, then it's not a pelican.

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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by tom66 » Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:19

Has anyone posted this? Since upgraded, go back to 2020 or so to see it in original glory. Headingley, Leeds.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.8148555 ... 312!8i6656

Prior to this I'd never seen a five-tall signal head. I can only assume it was installed due to space concerns on the narrow island for lorries and the like.

It looks like the council banned right turns here, so it got replaced with a simple ahead light. Probably an improvement, that junction was always a nightmare.

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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by L.J.D » Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:37

tom66 wrote:
Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:19
Has anyone posted this? Since upgraded, go back to 2020 or so to see it in original glory. Headingley, Leeds.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.8148555 ... 312!8i6656

Prior to this I'd never seen a five-tall signal head. I can only assume it was installed due to space concerns on the narrow island for lorries and the like.

It looks like the council banned right turns here, so it got replaced with a simple ahead light. Probably an improvement, that junction was always a nightmare.
God it looks awful now its a mix of old and new signal heads with low level cycle heads that aren't even at the kerbside.
They've also got those horrible plant boxes blocking turns off. Surely at that point it would just be more easier to renew the whole junction. Looks a right mess now.

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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by tom66 » Wed Feb 02, 2022 12:16

L.J.D wrote:
Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:37
tom66 wrote:
Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:19
Has anyone posted this? Since upgraded, go back to 2020 or so to see it in original glory. Headingley, Leeds.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.8148555 ... 312!8i6656

Prior to this I'd never seen a five-tall signal head. I can only assume it was installed due to space concerns on the narrow island for lorries and the like.

It looks like the council banned right turns here, so it got replaced with a simple ahead light. Probably an improvement, that junction was always a nightmare.
God it looks awful now its a mix of old and new signal heads with low level cycle heads that aren't even at the kerbside.
They've also got those horrible plant boxes blocking turns off. Surely at that point it would just be more easier to renew the whole junction. Looks a right mess now.
I suspect the plant boxes are there to allow outdoor dining during COVID for the adjacent restaurant. But, I agree that the left turn there should be removed permanently. It's redundant given the Rampart Road junction provides adequate turning flow and the al fresco dining is a better use of the space (my opinion)

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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by AlexBr967 » Wed Feb 02, 2022 14:05

tom66 wrote:
Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:19
Prior to this I'd never seen a five-tall signal head. I can only assume it was installed due to space concerns on the narrow island for lorries and the like.
I've seen this one in London: https://goo.gl/maps/eZtgnTT5gLE7sVNX6. Seems like a convoluted way of just having a separate right turn signal.

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Re: Unique Traffic Signals

Post by Beardy5632 » Wed Feb 02, 2022 17:39

tom66 wrote:
Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:19
Has anyone posted this? Since upgraded, go back to 2020 or so to see it in original glory. Headingley, Leeds.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.8148555 ... 312!8i6656

Prior to this I'd never seen a five-tall signal head. I can only assume it was installed due to space concerns on the narrow island for lorries and the like.

It looks like the council banned right turns here, so it got replaced with a simple ahead light. Probably an improvement, that junction was always a nightmare.
Since 2017 there's been one in Gloucester, before the lights were replaced it used to have exactly same layout as the signal on the right.
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