Botched Roadsigns

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SteelCamel
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by SteelCamel » Tue Jan 18, 2022 20:48

Skermington wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 08:29
Go back in time, and this one was fine. :roll:
"Fine" is debatable. Both "turn right" and "no left turn" on the same post? So, no turning left while you're turning right? And a flag sign to let you know that if you're looking for the car park you need to turn right, rather than... well actually there aren't any other options.

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Vierwielen
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Vierwielen » Tue Jan 18, 2022 21:10

SteelCamel wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 20:48
Skermington wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 08:29
Go back in time, and this one was fine. :roll:
"Fine" is debatable. Both "turn right" and "no left turn" on the same post? So, no turning left while you're turning right? And a flag sign to let you know that if you're looking for the car park you need to turn right, rather than... well actually there aren't any other options.
If you go back to 2017, you will find that ther is another option - you can turn either way because ther were no signs at all! :stir:

TS
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by TS » Thu Jan 20, 2022 09:05

alice wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 09:36
Couple more I noticed on my wanderings yesterday.

https://goo.gl/maps/AnNMZE4DeANvmsKb7 - This one I think has been mentioned before, but getting the road number wrong twice in different ways on the same sign is something special (ahead and left are the A347)

https://goo.gl/maps/fSYaypckqVtWvT1B9 - this odd one looks like a generic British Rail sign, but why they've put it up when a perfectly good actual road sign exists...
I live very close to your first example but I never approach the roundabout from that direction - so I've never seen the A367 error. The A357 mistake, though, is replicated on the northwest-bound approach.

---

You don't have to go far from there to find another example of a road number mistaken twice in different ways at the same place, though not on the same actual sign:

This is the B3073. Not the B3037 or B3078!

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MotorwayGuy
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by MotorwayGuy » Sat Jan 22, 2022 19:08


Octaviadriver
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Octaviadriver » Sun Jan 23, 2022 15:29

I saw this chevron sign this morning when I was crossing the Pontsticill Reservoir. I thought they were supposed to indicate which way the bend curves? If you go back on the timeline, the two earlier dates are in summer and the sign is almost hidden in the vegetation.

https://goo.gl/maps/HdhCTJVX6AdyCwKbA

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jervi
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by jervi » Mon Jan 24, 2022 19:18

Bryn666 wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 17:01
Chris Bertram wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 15:12
Conekicker wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:07
Yes and yes.
It's a bit lacking in NSL repeaters on the lamp-posts as well. This is something I spotted on the Red House to Barnsdale Bar section last time I was on it, but nobody, literally nobody was keeping down to 30.
Interestingly, HE have recently (finally) put NSL repeaters on the A56 between the M66 and A682 turn off. The lighting here was installed in the 1990s and never had repeaters. The weird thing? This is a section of trunk road they have just decommissioned all the lighting along, so the NSL repeaters are technically in an unlit section...

This is why using lighting as a means to determine the speed limit is completely and utterly stupid.
Follow up to this. I had no response to the report on their website, so I sent them an email a few weeks ago.
I had this response from them today:
I am contacting you regarding your complaint in relation to no national speed limit signs at the End of Motorway signs in Alconbury. The design is set to the Traffic signs Manual standards and there is no requirement for National Speed Limit repeater signs to be installed. Although you have reached the end of the motorway the national speed limit still applies, therefor no alteration.
I responded with this:
Whilst the guidance in the TSM may not specify the need for a terminal NSL sign at the end of motorway restriction, the RTR 84 does would suggest it does.

Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, Section 85 says
"In any proceedings for a contravention of section 81 of this Act, where the proceedings relate to driving on a road provided with [F15such a system of street or carriageway lighting], evidence of the absence of traffic signs displayed in pursuance of this section to indicate that the road is not a restricted road for the purposes of that section shall be evidence that the road is a restricted road for those purposes."
I'm not too good at reading this legal jargon, but I interpret that as: "On a road with street lighting, if there are no speed limit signs showing the road is not restricted (i.e. NSL), then the road is restricted (i.e. 30mph)". Another part in Section 85 states that Special Road (i.e. Roads under Motorway Regulations) are exempt from this as they cannot be "restricted".
If the A1 (and A14) were given Special Road Status as was originally planned, then this wouldn't be an issue, but since it wasn't given Special Road status, it is an issue.
I'm no legal expert on this, but how it is currently signed does not seem right. Could you see about getting legal advice as the TSM is merely guidance and not regulation or law.
I then received this:
Thank you for your email, as you have described in the below applying to a road absent of traffic signs. Before you enter the A1(M) you would be advised by a sign that the national speed limit applies, this therefore legally would apply until another sign enforcing a change in the speed limit. Although you are changing from the A1(M) to the A14 the national speed limit still applies.
I haven't yet responded to this email, however they are somewhat agreeing with me in terms of what the regulations say. But once you enter and leave a motorway you do not revert to the previously posted speed limit before you got on the motorway, as that would require all entrances to a motorway to be the same speed limit - however in the case of the A1(M) here it does appear all entrances are at NSL.

Anyone knowledgeable (or not) on this subject could you advice my response please, or what alternative way I could try and get this fixed.

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the cheesecake man
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by the cheesecake man » Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:57

Here's Rotherham's attempt at a small font! To emphasise the smallness they've put it in a correctly sized red box! Clever! :laugh:

Conekicker
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Conekicker » Tue Jan 25, 2022 18:09

the cheesecake man wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:57
Here's Rotherham's attempt at a small font! To emphasise the smallness they've put it in a correctly sized red box! Clever! :laugh:
...and an arrow that looks very much like a chevron:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.43896 ... 384!8i8192

You just can't get the staff.
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Chris5156
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Chris5156 » Wed Jan 26, 2022 15:01

jervi wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 19:18
Thank you for your email, as you have described in the below applying to a road absent of traffic signs. Before you enter the A1(M) you would be advised by a sign that the national speed limit applies, this therefore legally would apply until another sign enforcing a change in the speed limit. Although you are changing from the A1(M) to the A14 the national speed limit still applies.
I haven't yet responded to this email, however they are somewhat agreeing with me in terms of what the regulations say. But once you enter and leave a motorway you do not revert to the previously posted speed limit before you got on the motorway, as that would require all entrances to a motorway to be the same speed limit - however in the case of the A1(M) here it does appear all entrances are at NSL.

Anyone knowledgeable (or not) on this subject could you advice my response please, or what alternative way I could try and get this fixed.
I'm not an expert or a highway engineer, but from what I can see, I'd say you're absolutely right, and whoever you've reached at NH is failing to grasp the issue.

The last response you got highlights this: it's not about the speed limit changing and needing to be posted at the transition from A1(M) to A1. It's about the requirements of signposting a speed limit being different on motorways and all-purpose roads.
  • On an all-purpose road, such as the A1, NSL (60 or 70) applies unless there is a system of street lighting. The street lighting then makes it automatically 30mph. If there are lights, but the limit is not 30, then there must be suitable repeater signs at regular intervals to indicate the limit.
  • On a motorway, such as the A1(M), NSL applies regardless of lighting, because the legislation governing speed limits on motorways is entirely different. Because the lighting makes no difference, there is no need for repeater signs, unless a TRO has been applied to set a local limit.
In the case of the location you're discussing, travelling northbound on the A1(M) there are rightly no NSL repeater signs attached to the lighting columns because on a motorway they are not required. But as soon as you pass the "end of motorway regulations" sign, you are on an all-purpose road, and the fact that the lighting extends on to the non-motorway A1 means the default limit there is 30mph. If National Highways intend the limit to be higher than 30, they need to have a TRO in place and they need to install repeater signs to indicate the correct limit.

I don't know whether or not an NSL sign is required at the end of motorway sign - a quick survey of other similar locations suggests not. But NSL repeaters must be posted at intervals through the lit section of A1 if the limit is NSL.

Some examples on nearby NH roads, where National Highways' own installations seem to disagree with what you're being told:
  • The A1(M) to A1 transition southbound at South Mimms. There are no NSL signs at the end of motorway sign, but NSL repeaters are posted on the A1 just beyond. (Many seem to have gone missing, and there are more northbound than southbound, so the first one you reach southbound is over a kilometre after the end of motorway - I don't think that's compliant with the regs. But I put that down to poor maintenance of signs that were originally compliant.)
  • The illuminated section of A1 between Baldock and Biggleswade. This begins, northbound, on an NSL section of A1. The limit does not change, so there is no terminal/gateway NSL sign, but there are NSL repeaters throughout, including one on the first lighting column you reach northbound.
  • The A1(M) to A1 transition northbound at Red House (J38). Again, no NSL sign at the end of motorway sign, but NSL repeaters on the A1 thereafter. The first repeater is 620m beyond the end of motorway regulations.
  • The M11 to A14 transition northbound at Girton. Here there is an NSL sign mounted to the same post as the end of motorway sign, but it's a small one so arguably a repeater. The lighting runs out soon afterwards so maybe no others were thought necessary.
  • M2 westbound transition to A2. Big NSL signs have been posted just beyond the end of motorway signs here, mounted on the same post as clearway signs. It's then about 650m to the first NSL repeater, and repeaters are installed throughout the lit section beyond.
From that quick survey, the jury's out on whether a terminal NSL sign is needed at the end of motorway, but I'd say that's less important. What's absolutely necessary are NSL repeaters through the length of the lit section of A1.

I note that, southbound coming off the former A14 spur, the situation is the same - no NSL repeaters in the short lit section of ex-A14. Possibly whoever did the signs for the A1(M) Alconbury-Peterborough DBFO contract didn't understand speed limit signage requirements. They certainly didn't understand how to make gantry-mounted direction signs.

OliverH
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by OliverH » Wed Jan 26, 2022 15:13

SHOULD THE EXEMTION plate of this sign say except bikes or except cycles and not except "bike symbol" : https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.38318 ... 6656?hl=en

jnty
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by jnty » Wed Jan 26, 2022 15:58

OliverH wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 15:13
SHOULD THE EXEMTION plate of this sign say except bikes or except cycles and not except "bike symbol" : https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.38318 ... 6656?hl=en
Was going to link you to this similar example in Edinburgh but I notice it's been replaced by a more regular "except cycles" plate in the last few years. I think "except cycles" might have taken quite a while to get into TSRGD so perhaps a variety of special authorisations were given in the meantime.

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Patrick Harper
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Patrick Harper » Wed Jan 26, 2022 22:23

I don't think there has ever been a permanent TRO prohibiting pedestrian, cyclists and other slow traffic from using any part of the A406, but there have been several temporary TROs over the years and several signs relating to them have been left by mistake and then replaced as though they were enforcing a permanent order.
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Kevin Roads
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Kevin Roads » Sat Jan 29, 2022 14:36

I think the plate should be below a 'No Motor Vehicles' (the stunt motorcyclist) sign, with the NTR sign placed above or below them.
20220129_120617.jpg

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solocle
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by solocle » Sat Jan 29, 2022 14:59

TS wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 09:05
alice wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 09:36
Couple more I noticed on my wanderings yesterday.

https://goo.gl/maps/AnNMZE4DeANvmsKb7 - This one I think has been mentioned before, but getting the road number wrong twice in different ways on the same sign is something special (ahead and left are the A347)

https://goo.gl/maps/fSYaypckqVtWvT1B9 - this odd one looks like a generic British Rail sign, but why they've put it up when a perfectly good actual road sign exists...
I live very close to your first example but I never approach the roundabout from that direction - so I've never seen the A367 error. The A357 mistake, though, is replicated on the northwest-bound approach.

---

You don't have to go far from there to find another example of a road number mistaken twice in different ways at the same place, though not on the same actual sign:

This is the B3073. Not the B3037 or B3078!
I was coming to report just this! Photo taken on Tuesday...
50EFDECA-C8B0-4AE5-8F06-A58C598C5E65.jpeg

pjr10th
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by pjr10th » Sat Jan 29, 2022 19:03

I've got a treat for all you pedantic sign nerds

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1873242 ... 312!8i6656

Just in general a shocking layout. How many problems can you spot?

This junction has since been updated, but I can't remember what the signs look like. Will update you when I can.

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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Rambo » Sat Jan 29, 2022 19:13

Surely this is the wrong set up for this long straight entry slip on the A55
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Kevin Roads
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Kevin Roads » Sat Jan 29, 2022 19:29

Rambo wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 19:13
Surely this is the wrong set up for this long straight entry slip on the A55
Who thought of putting those signs up? The 'traffic merging / merge ahead' sign is the correct one to use, how can someone be - presumably - paid to not know this?

Which juntion is that, Rambo? I think I've seen it, maybe Flintshire?

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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Rambo » Sat Jan 29, 2022 19:32

It's Broughton jct 36a eastbound, just after the elderly RCS i posted a few months ago. It must be a contender for one of the longest dual carriageway slip roads which makes this botch even worse.

TS
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by TS » Sat Jan 29, 2022 21:05

This sign suggests that you should turn right for North Camp and Aldershot, but you cannot turn right here. You can see the No Right Turn signs on the traffic lights and we have already passed a sign indicating that you should proceed straight on and U-turn at the roundabout ahead.

Even if you could turn right here, this sign would not give you sufficient time to prepare to turn, unless you were in the right-hand lane already, in which case this sign would be a little on the small side!
20220128_161423.jpg
Google StreetView shows that it has been there, and the no-right-turn in place, since at least 2009.

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jervi
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by jervi » Sat Jan 29, 2022 23:28

TS wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 21:05
This sign suggests that you should turn right for North Camp and Aldershot, but you cannot turn right here. You can see the No Right Turn signs on the traffic lights and we have already passed a sign indicating that you should proceed straight on and U-turn at the roundabout ahead.

Even if you could turn right here, this sign would not give you sufficient time to prepare to turn, unless you were in the right-hand lane already, in which case this sign would be a little on the small side!

20220128_161423.jpg

Google StreetView shows that it has been there, and the no-right-turn in place, since at least 2009.
Small x-height and its location could suggest it is a cycle sign, but the wrong colour. But then working out how to do a right turn on a bicycle from the shared use path is another issue.
pjr10th wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 19:03
I've got a treat for all you pedantic sign nerds

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1873242 ... 312!8i6656

Just in general a shocking layout. How many problems can you spot?

This junction has since been updated, but I can't remember what the signs look like. Will update you when I can.
You don't have to be a sign nerd to point of several problems here, that is awful.

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