Oh, beautifully put.jnty wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 15:32Is the disconnect here that you/signage policymakers do not view "London" and "the M25" as equivalent destinations from outside it? Because if we do view London and the M25 as equivalent destinations from outside London, then nothing changed when the M25 was finished, because the M25 is, in long-term traveller waypoint terms, "London". So is this the key point of contention - that the M25 can't be truly considered to be "London"?Bomag wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 15:11Before the M25 this may be correct but since then (and definitely by the early 90's) its not the most important destination. Where there is a need for signing as a primary destination (M25 area), other primary destinations both in and out of Greater London are nearly always a better way finding options (as well as being the destination of the majority of the traffic). At locations remote from the M25 the use of 'London' reduces the number of primary destinations on an ADS which could improve local way finding.
The use of 'London' is not prohibited, but is used as a widespread alternative to better signing. The examples in this thread show how badly area teams / LHA signing policy has left us. Given the policies of the Mayor it's becoming even less relevant as signed destination for a large percentage of vehicular traffic.
While that might be strictly true, it's surely not practically true for the vast majority of travellers. Plenty of people will know exactly what and where London is and understand the significance of its orbital motorway to their journey without knowing exactly what "(M25)" means whereas the number of people who know they are heading for the M25 but have no idea that heading towards London will get them there has got to be miniscule. Indeed, hard as it us for us to believe, there's probably thousands of people who use the M25 every day without being totally sure what it's called, though every single one of them will know it goes around London.
It’s exactly the same as you approach Comber, a small town about seven miles from where I live.
Comber is a primary destination, in fact it is the target primary destination in both directions on its Trunk Road, because nobody in their right mind would use it to travel to end to end unless they needed to get their head showered by driving the long way round.
Comber town centre is on a non-primary road. Its by-pass, formed by part of the A21 and part of the A22, crosses the built up area in two places.
As soon as the A21 reaches the by-pass, the forward destination becomes Belfast and Downpatrick. As soon as the A22 reaches the by-pass, the forward destination becomes Newtownards, Bangor, Killyleagh and Downpatrick. Motorists told to drive to Downpatrick via Comber have the intelligence not to go through the town centre unless they have either business in the town centre or the head staggers.
Every town and city with a by-pass, throughpass or suburban ring road is exactly the same. The signs from the previous towns point to the centre of the conurbation, and through traffic is diverted via the ring road or bypass at the relevant decision point.
Signing policy is already that when you reach the outside of a conurbation, you have arrived. If you’re somewhere in Greater Manchester, do you find signs for Manchester or do you find signs for City centre?
And so it should be for London. Sign London until you reach the M25, being for all practical purposes the perimeter road of the conurbation that is Greater London, and then, just as you would in any other conurbation, sign through traffic away and choose a suitable target primary destination for traffic continuing towards central London.