Botched Roadsigns

Discussion about street lighting, road signs, traffic signals - and all other street furniture - goes here.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
jnty
Member
Posts: 1727
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2021 00:12

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by jnty »

Chris5156 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 15:49
jnty wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 14:14
Chris Bertram wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 13:47 Hmm, I'm not sure. This kind of signage is used where pedestrians crossing a main road would be an unexpected hazard, typically where a public footpath in a rural area crosses a high-speed road. The ordinary "pedestrian crossing the road" sign is used mainly in urban areas where warning is needed of a zebra or light-controlled crossing ahead.
Yep - the "Pedestrians Crossing" plate for an "other danger" sign is prescribed in TSRGD and used all over the network, particularly on those dodgy dual carriageway crossings that are dotted around.
Bryn had some suggested changes to fix exactly this problem on his blog a few years ago here.
No disagreements there. I wonder if the feeling is that a danger sign draws the attention more, whereas a pedestrians sign is just absorbed by the 'urban sign clutter filter' in drivers' brains regardless of whether it's in an unusual location.
User avatar
the cheesecake man
Member
Posts: 2462
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 13:21
Location: Sheffield

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by the cheesecake man »

Chris Bertram wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 13:47 ]Hmm, I'm not sure. This kind of signage is used where pedestrians crossing a main road would be an unexpected hazard, typically where a public footpath in a rural area crosses a high-speed road. The ordinary "pedestrian crossing the road" sign is used mainly in urban areas where warning is needed of a zebra or light-controlled crossing ahead.
In cases such as Wentbridge that seems to be true.

But this example is a golf course on the edge of Buxton so IMHO is closer to the urban situation than the A1.
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16908
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Chris5156 »

the cheesecake man wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 20:32
Chris Bertram wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 13:47 ]Hmm, I'm not sure. This kind of signage is used where pedestrians crossing a main road would be an unexpected hazard, typically where a public footpath in a rural area crosses a high-speed road. The ordinary "pedestrian crossing the road" sign is used mainly in urban areas where warning is needed of a zebra or light-controlled crossing ahead.
In cases such as Wentbridge that seems to be true.

But this example is a golf course on the edge of Buxton so IMHO is closer to the urban situation than the A1.
It’s still not a formal pedestrian crossing - unless there are white stripes and Belisha beacons, or traffic lights and red/green man signals, the only sign you can use is a “!” warning triangle with a plate underneath.
User avatar
the cheesecake man
Member
Posts: 2462
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 13:21
Location: Sheffield

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by the cheesecake man »

M1 (south) who needs capital letters?
swissferry
Member
Posts: 319
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 20:42

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by swissferry »

User avatar
Conekicker
Member
Posts: 3754
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 22:32
Location: South Yorks

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Conekicker »

An unenforceable 30 limit, how nice.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.56543 ... 8192?hl=en
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Chris Bertram »

Conekicker wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 15:57 An unenforceable 30 limit, how nice.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.56543 ... 8192?hl=en
Unenforceable why?
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Nathan_A_RF
Member
Posts: 721
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:53
Location: East Sussex/Southampton
Contact:

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

I presume the black border around the yellow backing board
User avatar
Conekicker
Member
Posts: 3754
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 22:32
Location: South Yorks

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Conekicker »

Nathan_A_RF wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 02:00 I presume the black border around the yellow backing board
Yep. Schoolboy error on the part of whoever designed that one.
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
User avatar
Big L
Deputy Site Manager
Posts: 7517
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 20:36
Location: B5012

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Big L »

You could do an experiment to see how unenforceable it is. You’d have a hard job in court arguing that the meaning isn’t obvious because of a black border.
Make poetry history.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Help with maps using the new online calibrator.
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki.
User avatar
Conekicker
Member
Posts: 3754
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 22:32
Location: South Yorks

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Conekicker »

Big L wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 09:04 You could do an experiment to see how unenforceable it is. You’d have a hard job in court arguing that the meaning isn’t obvious because of a black border.
What does TSRGD have to say on that? The courts cannot ignore legislation.
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
jnty
Member
Posts: 1727
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2021 00:12

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by jnty »

Conekicker wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 09:06
Big L wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 09:04 You could do an experiment to see how unenforceable it is. You’d have a hard job in court arguing that the meaning isn’t obvious because of a black border.
What does TSRGD have to say on that? The courts cannot ignore legislation.
It is debated a lot but you'd presumably be in a pretty weak position arguing that a slightly out of compliance 30 sign made you miss all the lampposts.
User avatar
Nathan_A_RF
Member
Posts: 721
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:53
Location: East Sussex/Southampton
Contact:

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Nathan_A_RF »

It's not the fact it isn't visible, it's the fact the sign is unlawful
User avatar
jervi
Member
Posts: 1596
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2017 16:29
Location: West Sussex

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by jervi »

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.17682 ... 384!8i8192

Weird & Inconsistent way to shorten "North" & "South"
jnty
Member
Posts: 1727
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2021 00:12

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by jnty »

Nathan_A_RF wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 14:40 It's not the fact it isn't visible, it's the fact the sign is unlawful
The lamppost frequency is what (usually) defines a 30 limit according to the Road Traffic Act, not the sign at the start. The legal ambiguity is how the requirements of the TSRGD interact with this. I can see that one interpretation of the law might say that you should have been doing 30 given the lampposts anyway, with the slightly dodgy 30 signs leaving no room for doubt. But you could also say that a 30 limit must be signed to the letter of the TSRGD to be remotely enforceable. I imagine a lot would hinge on the detailed context of any case.
User avatar
Glen
Social Media Admin
Posts: 5426
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 02:16
Location: Inbhir Pheofharain
Contact:

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Glen »

jervi wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 15:12 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.17682 ... 384!8i8192

Weird & Inconsistent way to shorten "North" & "South"
And the incorrect hatching the in ghost island between the opposing lanes.
User avatar
the cheesecake man
Member
Posts: 2462
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 13:21
Location: Sheffield

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by the cheesecake man »

Is it me or is this P unusually large?
OliverH
Member
Posts: 349
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:52
Location: West Yorkshire

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by OliverH »

here's not how to change some temporary speed limit signs into no entry signs: https://www.google.com/maps/@54.0836914 ... 312!8i6656
User avatar
MotorwayGuy
Member
Posts: 1000
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 15:37
Location: S.E. London

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by MotorwayGuy »

These no entry signs don't look right.
User avatar
Conekicker
Member
Posts: 3754
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 22:32
Location: South Yorks

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Conekicker »

Not botched roadsigns, well, not directly. Drove through some resurfacing roadworks today on the A26 in Northern Ireland here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.02410 ... 384!8i8192

The northbound carriageway was closed, (god knows where they were diverting southbound traffic), with the northbound running on the southbound carriageway. Which would have been fine except guess which signs they'd forgotten to cover over?

At the roundabout further back, in the verge opposite where the blue car is, there was a ROAD AHEAD CLOSED sign and a tiny DIVERSION arrow sign, pointing vaguely right, which lots of traffic, self included, ignored. As it turned out the road wasn't closed to northbound traffic, presumably explaining traffic ignoring the signs. So why install the signs if they are lying to drivers?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.01634 ... 384!8i8192

Personally I would have coned off the offside lane on the exit from the roundabout and put the signs there, in a sort of gateway effect, but only if the road actually was closed obviously.
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
Post Reply