Puffin crossings - a blunder?

[Truvelo]

The point that Lenzer is making, and I've commented about it numerous times on here, is the lights stay on red long after the pedestrians have finished crossing. Pelicans would now be on the flashing amber phase thereby allowing traffic to proceed.

[Big L]

The point that Lenzer is making, and I've commented about it numerous times on here, is the lights stay on red long after the pedestrians have finished crossing. Pelicans would now be on the flashing amber phase thereby allowing traffic to proceed.

Only the drivers that know you are allowed through flashing ambers, which seems to be a dwindling minority.

[kevjs]

Zebra crossings are OK until there is a steady stream of pedestrians with no break long enough to allow motor traffic through. That's when you need a signal crossing to alternate the priority.

I can't off the top of my head think of any locations where this is the case. In areas with very high pedestrian traffic it tend to coincide with very heavy vehicle traffic as well so traffic is going slowly enough for short stops to have no effect. If it was an issue it could probably be solved by putting in more frequent crossings rather than traffic lights.

There's a Zebra crossing in Nottingham city centre that regularly has such high pedestrian flows that it has bouncers on it to stop the pedestrians and let buses through At times when the bouncers aren't there - the buses, after waiting a while, just start to creep across the crossings until people give way to them.

[boing_uk]

Well, a long all-red clearance period is a fault with the on-crossing detectors; report it to the local authority.

One thing I can say is that the puffin crossings in MY area are configured correctly. As soon as a pedestrian is clear of the crossing the lights are changing back to vehicle green. To be fair its not difficult to configure the crossings to be efficient for all users. Most of my stand-alone crossings are set with pre-timed maxes, set at 20 seconds so that when a ped does turn up and presses the button it is an instant change.

Again, the devil is in the detail and making sure that all the detectors are correctly configured and maintained.

As I have said before, it would be a rare situation for me to not specify a puffin design as they are in general more efficient for all road users in the vast majority of cases.

[andrewwoods]

Surely the most efficient is a Pelican, as once the pedestrian has finished crossing there is no need to wait while the computer agrees with you, and then wait again for the Red+Amber phase.

There are other reasons why Puffins have replaced Pelicans, but I would think that most pedestrians (who have to wait for a gap) and most drivers (who have to wait for the Red+Amber) would think them less efficient.

[AndyB]

Pedestrians have to wait inordinate lengths of time at Pelicans as well. Far too many are configured to wait until the pedestrian could safely cross using the Green Cross Code, ignoring the lights altogether.

The other thing is that a Puffin can clear more quickly than a Pelican, if configured correctly. If someone starts crossing early and completes before the pedestrian light goes back to red (remember this is a lot shorter than the Pelican 7 seconds), then the traffic lights can change immediately for a shorter red cycle than a Pelican.

[boing_uk]

Pelicans are perhaps the least efficient when you consider the recommended timings.

At least, if a ped legs it across before the demand is actually cancelled, traffic can be moving again in as little as 5 seconds after the green man has first appeared.

With a pelican, you have:

Green man, timing being 3/4 in seconds the length of the crossing in metres
2 seconds flashing green man
x- seconds of flashing green man and flashing amber 3/4 in seconds the length of the crossing
2 seconds red man, 2 seconds flashing amber
Vehicle green.

On a puffin,assuming the ped is quick and clears within the 4 second green invite, the equivalent would be a change straight to starting amber once the fixed clearance periods have expired - in the case of my crossings, 1 second after the ped going back to red.

[kit]

On a puffin,assuming the ped is quick and clears within the 4 second green invite, the equivalent would be a change straight to starting amber once the fixed clearance periods have expired - in the case of my crossings, 1 second after the ped going back to red.

I think it is fair to say yours are well set up (especially the 20 second max pedestrian wait time). The problem is that unless they are fool-proof then regrettably they will be setup by someone foolish and won't work well for anyone.

There are a couple on my commute to work that take so long to change that I seldom actually see the cycle (presumably annoying someone two minutes later who is waiting at a red for no reason). On the odd occasion I have to wait long enough for them to change I have already cleared the crossing before they get to red. And I am using them (6.30am and 8.30pm) well out of peak periods.

One of these is on an otherwise presumably expensive high quality, wide, lit cycleway and the crossing is a very effective "fly in the ointment" making the road an attractive option.

[boing_uk]

Then why are you wittering about it on here and not making a complaint to the highway authority?

I'm sorry but there is little point in making negative comments about particular crossings on a road-geek forum, which the team responsible doesn't probably read. You need to tell them!

[Piatkow]

It is a habit that people fall into on all specialist (geek) forums.

[kevjs]

What is the correct, legal, way to get from Point A (at the right on the segregated cycle "super" highway) to Point B (at the left on the shared use path) so you can continue the travelling along the east to west road ahead of you...

* Show where nearside indicators have been provided, and as a pedestrian the angles are pretty good here but as a cyclist heading towards the point where the photo was taken you can't see the indicators from the cycle path....

X shows where there is NO nearside indicator

The options as I see them
1. Stop in the cycle lane at the white line, then start your right turn when the cycle route lights go red (which they do just before the crossing goes green), then go over the line when the lights on red... (i.e. The sort of movement you'd make on the road, except the light would be green for you)
2. Pull up to the edge of the road (i.e. point X), then guess when the traffic lights have gone red as there are no far side indicators, or nearside indicators at that point - you're not jumping a red now, but have no idea when it's green
3. Turn left on the pavement (which is NOT signed as shared use), do a full 360 and wait for the green man/bike (i.e. follow the green line I added in, which the cyclist to the left of the picture did)
4. Find the worm hole which gets you to the other side of the road without dealing with that nonsense?
5. Tell the council to build it properly

Oh, and as a cyclist on this track it's so intuitive how the lights you normally follow (i.e. the green/red bike/man) in the position you'd expect (i.e. on the right) show something totally different to the new style lights on the left which you are supposed to follow!

And before you say the nearsides are always at 90 degrees, further along this very route (heading outbound, above photos are heading inbound) nearside indicators are pointing straight at you to signal the straight ahead cycle route is clear... like so

[michael769]

a lot of people are selfish enough to press the button then cross anyway.

They do this because puffins make pedestrians wait until there is a gap in traffic big enough that they could cross without the lights.

Why on earth should I?

Because one day you won't notice the copper who will give you a TS10 endorsement leading to 5 years of 4 figure insurance renewals?

Pelican crossings worked fine. Getting rid of the flashing amber was a disaster.

Very true, and they also changed soon enough after a button push to be actually of some benefit to crossing pedestrians.

[kit]

Very true, and they also changed soon enough after a button push to be actually of some benefit to crossing pedestrians.

I think that is a fault with the engineer, not the crossing. I'm sure wait times can be programmed to be short (or better instantaneous) and I have no idea why the vogue currently is to have them change at 2am sometime next week.

[ianwallis]

Very true, and they also changed soon enough after a button push to be actually of some benefit to crossing pedestrians.

I think that is a fault with the engineer, not the crossing. I'm sure wait times can be programmed to be short (or better instantaneous) and I have no idea why the vogue currently is to have them change at 2am sometime next week.

The default mode for pelican crossings in 30mph zones was pre-timed max (LTN 2-95). Some Authorities did this although quite a lot didn't. For some reason, when the Puffin guidance came out it no longer suggested they should be pre-timed max which might be why even fewer crossings now work that way.
In Derby we made the decision to still use PTM unless the crossings are linked or within a UTC region.

[Foot Soldier]

I wish. I've yet to see a puffin crossing turn back to green once the pedestrians have crossed. They all remain on red for an inordinate amount of time afterwards testing the patience of drivers.

As a pedestrian I have the *opposite* problem at a local four-way junction that has just been Puffinized:

1. All traffic signals turn red
2. There is a delay of SEVEN seconds before the green man illuminates
3. The green man remains lit for SIX seconds
4. There is a delay of THREE seconds before a traffic signal resumes red-amber

Surely this can't be correctly programmed. The drivers and pedestrians stare awkwardly at each other in period (2) wondering what's going to happen next. Then at (3) the pedestrians have to hurry across because the traffic will start flowing in nine seconds, which is barely enough time to get across.

After a week of this some pedestrians have started to tentatively cross in period (2) but it is alarming to be well onto a three-lane road when the green man still hasn't illuminated.

[Nwallace]

Something I've noticed twice recently is crossings that get "stuck".

On Dura Street next to the chippy for a few months earlier this year the lights were in a constant cycle for a few weeks, as soon as the crossing phase was done the wait light was back on.
Of course this happened even when no one was standing waiting to cross...
This was also great for getting out of Eliza Street!
https://goo.gl/maps/6ziWipBscNQ2


Now I've spotted the one at the Morgan is now doing exactly the same for the last couple of weeks!
https://goo.gl/maps/Vk2TjEAh8zs

[AndyB]

I wish. I've yet to see a puffin crossing turn back to green once the pedestrians have crossed. They all remain on red for an inordinate amount of time afterwards testing the patience of drivers.

As a pedestrian I have the *opposite* problem at a local four-way junction that has just been Puffinized:

1. All traffic signals turn red
2. There is a delay of SEVEN seconds before the green man illuminates
3. The green man remains lit for SIX seconds
4. There is a delay of THREE seconds before a traffic signal resumes red-amber

Surely this can't be correctly programmed. The drivers and pedestrians stare awkwardly at each other in period (2) wondering what's going to happen next. Then at (3) the pedestrians have to hurry across because the traffic will start flowing in nine seconds, which is barely enough time to get across.

After a week of this some pedestrians have started to tentatively cross in period (2) but it is alarming to be well onto a three-lane road when the green man still hasn't illuminated.

I've seen long delays as at (2) myself, and it doesn't make sense.

However, the invitation phase at (3) is deliberately short. If there are infra reds on the crossings, the lights should be held at red for as long as is required at (4), and that is the main difference from pelicans where the flashing amber is of fixed duration and drivers forget that they must not proceed on green if someone is still crossing.

On the other hand, if it's a crossroads and they are going to the opposite corner, they won't be picked up.

[AndyB]

Something I've noticed twice recently is crossings that get "stuck".

On Dura Street next to the chippy for a few months earlier this year the lights were in a constant cycle for a few weeks, as soon as the crossing phase was done the wait light was back on.
Of course this happened even when no one was standing waiting to cross...
This was also great for getting out of Eliza Street!
https://goo.gl/maps/6ziWipBscNQ2


Now I've spotted the one at the Morgan is now doing exactly the same for the last couple of weeks!
https://goo.gl/maps/Vk2TjEAh8zs

That's quite common for all crossing types. Usually an issue with one of the push buttons.

[Chris Bertram]

Something I've noticed twice recently is crossings that get "stuck".

On Dura Street next to the chippy for a few months earlier this year the lights were in a constant cycle for a few weeks, as soon as the crossing phase was done the wait light was back on.
Of course this happened even when no one was standing waiting to cross...
This was also great for getting out of Eliza Street!
https://goo.gl/maps/6ziWipBscNQ2

Now I've spotted the one at the Morgan is now doing exactly the same for the last couple of weeks!
https://goo.gl/maps/Vk2TjEAh8zs

That's quite common for all crossing types. Usually an issue with one of the push buttons.

I spotted a crossing at a junction doing this in Birmingham a little while ago. Reported it via the council website facility and next time I passed that way a week later it was fixed.

[scynthius726]

I wish. I've yet to see a puffin crossing turn back to green once the pedestrians have crossed. They all remain on red for an inordinate amount of time afterwards testing the patience of drivers.

As a pedestrian I have the *opposite* problem at a local four-way junction that has just been Puffinized:

1. All traffic signals turn red
2. There is a delay of SEVEN seconds before the green man illuminates
3. The green man remains lit for SIX seconds
4. There is a delay of THREE seconds before a traffic signal resumes red-amber

Surely this can't be correctly programmed. The drivers and pedestrians stare awkwardly at each other in period (2) wondering what's going to happen next. Then at (3) the pedestrians have to hurry across because the traffic will start flowing in nine seconds, which is barely enough time to get across.

After a week of this some pedestrians have started to tentatively cross in period (2) but it is alarming to be well onto a three-lane road when the green man still hasn't illuminated.

That is correct as long as nobody is still crossing during (4).