Botched Roadsigns

Discussion about street lighting, road signs, traffic signals - and all other street furniture - goes here.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
someone
Member
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:46
Location: London

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by someone »

I do not know if is technically botched, but trying to make sense in the two seconds as you approach it before reaching the roundabout is quite a challenge.

https://goo.gl/maps/ea9DJiAqeZ62

And although not a road sign, I always wonder about the lane markings on the A282 north of the Dartford tunnels. Surely this is botched?

https://goo.gl/maps/Rti9ajZcMe72

It does not even seem to be for when the bridge is closed, as southbound traffic moves over much later.

And this road sign is not botched, but there is no thread for wonderful road signs.

https://goo.gl/maps/2GmARx1cZTt
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Chris Bertram »

someone wrote: Mon Oct 01, 2018 14:15 I do not know if is technically botched, but trying to make sense in the two seconds as you approach it before reaching the roundabout is quite a challenge.

https://goo.gl/maps/ea9DJiAqeZ62
I know that location, and can quite appreciate what it's trying to say, though one feels that there ought to be the regulation gap in the roundabout, at about 5 o'clock in the circle. Sudbury has a large gyratory system around its town centre, I think it takes about 10 minutes to do a complete circuit. This is at the SE corner, where traffic coming in from Great Cornard (I'm sure that should be a breed of bird) meets the circulation, and is more-or-less forced to head via the market place. The roundabout is there to enable traffic from the minor road on the left to turn right, and for traffic from the north to reach said minor road, while traffic already on the gyratory is given a cut-off that avoids the roundabout altogether.

The sign is clearly not new - a modern version would have a larger green patch to include Bury St Edmunds as well as the route number.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35755
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Bryn666 »

someone wrote: Mon Oct 01, 2018 14:15
And although not a road sign, I always wonder about the lane markings on the A282 north of the Dartford tunnels. Surely this is botched?

https://goo.gl/maps/Rti9ajZcMe72

It does not even seem to be for when the bridge is closed, as southbound traffic moves over much later.
Traffic using the right hand tunnel is being kept away from the J31 exit to prevent weaving, hence the markings. You can move to the right but not the left.

It's not conventional, but presumably it was signed off as enforceable by the police.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
someone
Member
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:46
Location: London

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by someone »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Oct 01, 2018 15:51
someone wrote: Mon Oct 01, 2018 14:15
And although not a road sign, I always wonder about the lane markings on the A282 north of the Dartford tunnels. Surely this is botched?

https://goo.gl/maps/Rti9ajZcMe72

It does not even seem to be for when the bridge is closed, as southbound traffic moves over much later.
Traffic using the right hand tunnel is being kept away from the J31 exit to prevent weaving, hence the markings. You can move to the right but not the left.

It's not conventional, but presumably it was signed off as enforceable by the police.
If that is the reason it only compounds the botch as there is no sign before the tunnels to say traffic for the A1306 needs to use the western one. Possibly there would also need to be a sign giving the alternative route for taller vehicles that must use the eastern tunnel.

But I do not see how it can be enforced when the TSRGD Regulation 26 explicitly only applies when "the marking has been so placed that, as viewed in the direction of travel of the vehicle, a continuous line is on the left of a broken line or of another continuous line" in order that they "be so driven as to keep the first-mentioned continuous line on the right hand or off side of the vehicle."

In a normal context traffic moving from lanes one and two can cross similar double lines to overtake then return back to the left. Presumably why the regulation states it as such, to avoid traffic being otherwise technically trapped in an oncoming lane. So the marking does not even prevent all traffic moving from the outside lanes leftwards into the inside ones, only half of the traffic. Which is very weird, and why I always wonder about it when I go that way as I cannot logically make sense of it.

Definitely a botch then.

As for weaving, I saw that Sudbury sign when I was going north from the B1508 to B1115. That journey creates a horrible weave because there is only about thirty yards between where the traffic from the roundabout (joining from the left) and bypassing section of road (joining from the right) come together and then split between the full gyratory (left of the split) or cutting the corner of it (the right of the split).

I would imagine most of the traffic coming from the right will leave the left, so will need to change lanes. But the right side of the split, which cuts the corner to avoid the full gyratory, is the signposted route to use to get to the A134, the direction with the no entry signs on the award diagram. So presumably most of the traffic taking it will have come via that roundabout.

Ideally that spit should be on the sign too to show the alternative route, and better warn traffic of the coming weave. Definitely not an easy layout to depict, but the long section of road bypassing the roundabout has no reason to be there, it seems just a way of lazily only needing one no entry sign and is what makes it confusing. The sign gives more prominence to where you cannot go and does not warn about the impending weave.

Personally I would make the line coming out for the second roundabout exit continue an upwards straight line, with the A131 and (A134) north as the direction. Before that I would show a road coming out for the (A134) south and B1115, and just a stub with a no entry sign for the bypassing section of road. On the roundabout the third exit just a stub with a no entry sign, and the usual broken gap after that. It would need to be taller, but would tell you all you need to know. Left turn for a local street, a split immediately after the second exit, and warns that that traffic will be joining from the right.

I have been through Sudbury before, but seeing that sign I was totally confused and had no time to try to decode it. Instead I had to look at the TomTom map to make sense of where I was going.
User avatar
ManomayLR
Social Media Admin
Posts: 3331
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:47
Location: London, UK

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by ManomayLR »

someone wrote: Mon Oct 01, 2018 20:21
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Oct 01, 2018 15:51
someone wrote: Mon Oct 01, 2018 14:15
And although not a road sign, I always wonder about the lane markings on the A282 north of the Dartford tunnels. Surely this is botched?

https://goo.gl/maps/Rti9ajZcMe72

It does not even seem to be for when the bridge is closed, as southbound traffic moves over much later.
Traffic using the right hand tunnel is being kept away from the J31 exit to prevent weaving, hence the markings. You can move to the right but not the left.

It's not conventional, but presumably it was signed off as enforceable by the police.
If that is the reason it only compounds the botch as there is no sign before the tunnels to say traffic for the A1306 needs to use the western one. Possibly there would also need to be a sign giving the alternative route for taller vehicles that must use the eastern tunnel.

But I do not see how it can be enforced when the TSRGD Regulation 26 explicitly only applies when "the marking has been so placed that, as viewed in the direction of travel of the vehicle, a continuous line is on the left of a broken line or of another continuous line" in order that they "be so driven as to keep the first-mentioned continuous line on the right hand or off side of the vehicle."

In a normal context traffic moving from lanes one and two can cross similar double lines to overtake then return back to the left. Presumably why the regulation states it as such, to avoid traffic being otherwise technically trapped in an oncoming lane. So the marking does not even prevent all traffic moving from the outside lanes leftwards into the inside ones, only half of the traffic. Which is very weird, and why I always wonder about it when I go that way as I cannot logically make sense of it.

Definitely a botch then.

As for weaving, I saw that Sudbury sign when I was going north from the B1508 to B1115. That journey creates a horrible weave because there is only about thirty yards between where the traffic from the roundabout (joining from the left) and bypassing section of road (joining from the right) come together and then split between the full gyratory (left of the split) or cutting the corner of it (the right of the split).

I would imagine most of the traffic coming from the right will leave the left, so will need to change lanes. But the right side of the split, which cuts the corner to avoid the full gyratory, is the signposted route to use to get to the A134, the direction with the no entry signs on the award diagram. So presumably most of the traffic taking it will have come via that roundabout.

Ideally that spit should be on the sign too to show the alternative route, and better warn traffic of the coming weave. Definitely not an easy layout to depict, but the long section of road bypassing the roundabout has no reason to be there, it seems just a way of lazily only needing one no entry sign and is what makes it confusing. The sign gives more prominence to where you cannot go and does not warn about the impending weave.

Personally I would make the line coming out for the second roundabout exit continue an upwards straight line, with the A131 and (A134) north as the direction. Before that I would show a road coming out for the (A134) south and B1115, and just a stub with a no entry sign for the bypassing section of road. On the roundabout the third exit just a stub with a no entry sign, and the usual broken gap after that. It would need to be taller, but would tell you all you need to know. Left turn for a local street, a split immediately after the second exit, and warns that that traffic will be joining from the right.

I have been through Sudbury before, but seeing that sign I was totally confused and had no time to try to decode it. Instead I had to look at the TomTom map to make sense of where I was going.
The Sudbury Junction - notorious because even Sabristi have to use the map!
Though roads may not put a smile on everyone's face, there is one road that always will: the road to home.
User avatar
Big L
Deputy Site Manager
Posts: 7517
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 20:36
Location: B5012

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Big L »

Make poetry history.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Help with maps using the new online calibrator.
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki.
User avatar
owen b
Member
Posts: 9861
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 15:22
Location: Luton

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by owen b »

Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Oct 01, 2018 14:33
someone wrote: Mon Oct 01, 2018 14:15 I do not know if is technically botched, but trying to make sense in the two seconds as you approach it before reaching the roundabout is quite a challenge.

https://goo.gl/maps/ea9DJiAqeZ62
I know that location, and can quite appreciate what it's trying to say, though one feels that there ought to be the regulation gap in the roundabout, at about 5 o'clock in the circle. Sudbury has a large gyratory system around its town centre, I think it takes about 10 minutes to do a complete circuit. This is at the SE corner, where traffic coming in from Great Cornard (I'm sure that should be a breed of bird) meets the circulation, and is more-or-less forced to head via the market place. The roundabout is there to enable traffic from the minor road on the left to turn right, and for traffic from the north to reach said minor road, while traffic already on the gyratory is given a cut-off that avoids the roundabout altogether.

The sign is clearly not new - a modern version would have a larger green patch to include Bury St Edmunds as well as the route number.
The gyratory dates back to at least 1984. The sign looks familiar from when I lived in a nearby village back in those days. It's an odd road layout but my recollection is that it works fairly well. The roundabout is separate from the main town gyratory, which keeps a lot of traffic (using the minor road) going to and from the railway station / supermarket / leisure centre / Great Cornard off the gyratory and out of Sudbury town centre.
Owen
TS
Member
Posts: 611
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 17:18
Location: Bournemouth

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by TS »

Portush, anyone?
Portush.jpg
TS
Member
Posts: 611
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 17:18
Location: Bournemouth

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by TS »

My dad took this photo in either December 1966 or January 1967. It was at Stoke Charity in Hampshire and of course has long been replaced now.

I'll leave you to decide why they didn't just say one mile!
1767.jpg
alice
Member
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:56

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by alice »

Someone appears to have left a gap on this junction sign diagram as if this were a roundabout: https://goo.gl/maps/ufDC8gMs7TA2

Meanwhile, further down the road: https://goo.gl/maps/q35oh5NpLdS2 - I'm sure there may be something wrong, I just wanted to point out that it looks like a tap

Oh, and does the road narrow on both sides to the road ahead or to the right? https://goo.gl/maps/4iKN43KowN92
someone
Member
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:46
Location: London

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by someone »

alice wrote: Wed Oct 03, 2018 13:03 Someone appears to have left a gap on this junction sign diagram as if this were a roundabout: https://goo.gl/maps/ufDC8gMs7TA2
It was not me!

But I would guess that Queen's Road never used to be one-way, and that that is just an old sign for how the junction used to work when the first turn was one-way for traffic joining the main road. I have seen signs elsewhere with a gap to explain that kind of layout. Which I think it does very clearly.
TS
Member
Posts: 611
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 17:18
Location: Bournemouth

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by TS »

This from the Isle of Tiree. I was there in 2014; I wonder if it's been corrected by now, more properly than with a permanent marker?!
DSCN9392a.jpg
drm567
Member
Posts: 588
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 13:13
Location: Watford, Herts

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by drm567 »

Elephant Road, just off Elephant Castle roundabout.
Apart from it being bonkers putting the cycle lane on the footway, what is the meaning of the blue sign with supplementary plate? And then 50 yards further on the cycle lane is in fact on the road, but with the same sign.
I, naively, used to think that road signs were designed by people who knew what they were doing.
User avatar
Beardy5632
Member
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 16:45
Location: Forest of Dean

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Beardy5632 »

I spotted this one yesterday when I had to pop down to Monmouth. I might be wrong but I didn't think areas like the Forest were supposed to have distances next to them, I've certainly never seen signs saying x number of miles to the Cotswolds or the Lakes etc
British & Irish cities driven in - 48/75
England - 36/52, Scotland - 7/7, Wales - 5/6, NI - 0/5, RoI - 0/5
User avatar
Euan
Member
Posts: 1851
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 07:59
Location: North Ayrshire

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Euan »

There are two signs on the A737 Johnstone bypass with typos. Approaching the A761 junction heading south west, this sign misspells it as A781:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.85017 ... 384!8i8192

Further along, another sign gives notice of the B789 junction, but misspells it as B769:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.84361 ... 384!8i8192

I'm pretty sure these signs are not referring to any roads in the centre of Dumfries or the back road to Irvine from the south side of Glasgow. In fact, the middle digits of each number are just the wrong way round and it seems likely that these signs were both installed at a similar time when the digits must have been mixed up.

On a positive note, at least the A781 is signposted somewhere!
E-roads, M-roads, A-roads, N-roads, B-roads, R-roads, C-roads, L-roads, U-roads, footpaths
someone
Member
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:46
Location: London

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by someone »

The repeater signs on the B3347 are all full-sized speed limit signs, which is quite confusing when you see them in the distance and expect it to means a speed change before you are close enough to read them.
User avatar
Johnathan404
Member
Posts: 11478
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 16:54

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Johnathan404 »

I have always said I don't think signs which say "except trams" are necessary. I just can't imagine a scenario where a trained tram driver thinks his tram is taking him the wrong way, or where a car goes past a no entry because "that train just did it".

Anyway, this exception plate seems especially excessive. :lol:
IMG_4310[1].jpg
I have websites about: motorway services | Fareham
justacey
Member
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 19:12

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by justacey »

Another 'mirrored' roundabout sign.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.58235 ... 312!8i6656
rw93
Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 08:16
Location: Stoke on Trent

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by rw93 »

I pass this sign everyday on the way back from work and it irritates me, just after J12 on the M6 northbound.

https://goo.gl/maps/HtBtg4WMa9N2

The "8" is upside down, the "4" of "24" is on a plate, as is "64". "Stoke-on" and "Manchester" are the same.

I can only assume that the sign was in a different location at some point and had to be adapted for it's new location? Bit weird.
User avatar
Johnathan404
Member
Posts: 11478
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 16:54

Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Johnathan404 »

You really would have expected that sign not to survive the roadworks.
I have websites about: motorway services | Fareham
Post Reply