Botched Roadsigns

[Rambo]

M56 Jct 10 / A49. First one taken a year ago. Second one today. New Inland Border facility sign has been added therefore the Happy Guests Lodge sign has moved to the left hand arm but still pointing right! Also Orchard Meadows pointing left on the right arm !

I thought that best practice now was only to signpost the places at the roundabout exit, and not have right-pointing signs directing you further round the roundabout. If so, more than half of those could have come down rather than add new ones to the pile!

That's always been the case. Only in unusual circumstances should right pointing flags be present.

If this is the case then a lot of motorway junctions near me are wrong. Many on the M56 / M62. Here are a few examples.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4234583 ... 312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4217808 ... 312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3279226 ... 312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3262403 ... 312!8i6656

[Conekicker]

If this is the case then a lot of motorway junctions near me are wrong. Many on the M56 / M62. Here are a few examples.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4234583 ... 312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4217808 ... 312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3279226 ... 312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3262403 ... 312!8i6656

Quite typical sadly.
Badly designed signs, sign overload, unnecessary signs.

[the cheesecake man]

Not just a bus lane, more like a BUS LANE!

[orudge]

I don't have a picture, but driving into Aberdeen on the A944 today, there was a temporary lane closure with advance warning signs. There were signs on each side of the carriageway (it's a D2). The right-hand signs said "200 yards", then "100 yards". The left-hand signs said "200 metres", then "100 metres"! (And to top it off, the 100 metre sign actually said "00 metres" with a '1' drawn on in what looked like a thick permanent marker).

[jonnyf90]

Probably posted before...
But does this sign mean Max speed limit of 5MPH is prohibited?

https://goo.gl/maps/CTS7wrf6QyPPMZQ78

[Having a cuppa]

Probably posted before...
But does this sign mean Max speed limit of 5MPH is prohibited?

https://goo.gl/maps/CTS7wrf6QyPPMZQ78

By technicality yes, because in simplified terms, red roundel signs are prohibitive or "negative". For instance a regular 40 mph sign would be interpreted as drivers cannot go above 40 mph. The sign you referenced contains mandatory order as it is saying drivers can go up to 5 mph. There-again by technicality, this should be a blue regulatory sign as it is indicating mandatory directions. However the existing blue, circular speed limit sign is a minimum speed limit sign. https://www.google.com/search?q=minimum ... NUxge-xiaM

[Rambo]

I think the information is correct but i just don't like the look of this.

[Bryn666]

I think the information is correct but i just don't like the look of this.

The block alignment is shonky on the white panel which is why it looks wrong.

[Kevin Roads]

Some more botched No Through Road signs courtesy of Gwynedd Council (I posted a few weeks' ago about an incorrectly-placed and labelled sign in Bangor):

In Gerlan, above Bethesda, this was the only NTR sign on this road until fairly recently (last couple of years?)https://maps.app.goo.gl/aUBpBN8Z7gBKRHqHA It isn't actually correct, as the start of the NTR is further back but I can see why it was placed here as this is the last reasonable turning space. There is also a small NTR symbol on the roadsign for Ciltwllan going up to the left but I don't think that this ever had a standalone sign on a pole.

All well and (fairly) good but then I noticed this https://maps.app.goo.gl/Bfa9PQ4jGxkts3VRA and this https://maps.app.goo.gl/e23GA8K8FhVHCA1JA have appeared (both just visible here https://maps.app.goo.gl/bS6ffYNtsmQiawos7 ) The first of these is just awful, in both design and placement. Do the council not understand that the meaning and purpose of the NTR symbol is that once motorists have driven past the sign they will have to retrace their route and return to that same point i.e. they can't go through to anywhere? This is regardless of how many streets, junctions etc may be beyond the NTR sign - they don't need to turn the sign into a map to show the road layout ahead.

The second new sign on the side street isn't needed either (see below) but shows how inconsistent these incorrect placements are as, if the council feel that every individual street needs an NTR sign then why haven't they put one on the road opposite Ciltwllan (in the first link above) or include it as an arm on the 'street map' abomination?

To my understanding, the only NTR sign needs to be placed here https://maps.app.goo.gl/Pyw6iVq5FRYDcg7Q6 just after the junction with Morgan St. You could turn left up Morgan St and do two more left turns which is a 'through route' but if you drive any further ahead on Gerlan Road then you must retrace your route to end up back at this point i.e. no through road.

Any thoughts?

[Rambo]

Some more botched No Through Road signs courtesy of Gwynedd Council (I posted a few weeks' ago about an incorrectly-placed and labelled sign in Bangor):

In Gerlan, above Bethesda, this was the only NTR sign on this road until fairly recently (last couple of years?)https://maps.app.goo.gl/aUBpBN8Z7gBKRHqHA It isn't actually correct, as the start of the NTR is further back but I can see why it was placed here as this is the last reasonable turning space. There is also a small NTR symbol on the roadsign for Ciltwllan going up to the left but I don't think that this ever had a standalone sign on a pole.

All well and (fairly) good but then I noticed this https://maps.app.goo.gl/Bfa9PQ4jGxkts3VRA and this https://maps.app.goo.gl/e23GA8K8FhVHCA1JA have appeared (both just visible here https://maps.app.goo.gl/bS6ffYNtsmQiawos7 ) The first of these is just awful, in both design and placement. Do the council not understand that the meaning and purpose of the NTR symbol is that once motorists have driven past the sign they will have to retrace their route and return to that same point i.e. they can't go through to anywhere? This is regardless of how many streets, junctions etc may be beyond the NTR sign - they don't need to turn the sign into a map to show the road layout ahead.

The second new sign on the side street isn't needed either (see below) but shows how inconsistent these incorrect placements are as, if the council feel that every individual street needs an NTR sign then why haven't they put one on the road opposite Ciltwllan (in the first link above) or include it as an arm on the 'street map' abomination?

To my understanding, the only NTR sign needs to be placed here https://maps.app.goo.gl/Pyw6iVq5FRYDcg7Q6 just after the junction with Morgan St. You could turn left up Morgan St and do two more left turns which is a 'through route' but if you drive any further ahead on Gerlan Road then you must retrace your route to end up back at this point i.e. no through road.

Any thoughts?

The double NTR sign is a bit dodgy. Could have been a normal version set further back down the lane.

[Bfivethousand]

Because you can never be too safe

[Skermington]

A405 Garston

[Chris56000]

Hi!

Chester Rd
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Bt7i7nXouUNBVMQAA

Ahem!

Chris Williams

[Rambo]

Hi!

Chester Rd
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Bt7i7nXouUNBVMQAA

Ahem!

Chris Williams

A588..
not warrington for once but Halton!

[Conekicker]

Hi!

Chester Rd
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Bt7i7nXouUNBVMQAA

Ahem!

Chris Williams

One of those signs where it would be quicker to list what is right with it than what is wrong.

[Chris56000]

Hi!

Apart from the obvious howler with the number "A588" on it, it's not actually all that botched in reality, the only improvements I can think of are:–

(a) Raise the green Warrington Primary Route A56 panel so it's top edge is level with the top edge of the "Manchester M56" Motorway Panel;

(b) "Hotel" should have an initial capital H!

TSM Chapter 7 does permit the GSJ roundabout symbol and arms to be rotated clockwise or anticlockwise with respect to the horizontal if this better illustrates the junction layout, so it's not botched in that respect, nor is the practice of making route panels with corner indents to "tuck" route arm ends into – both the UK and Irish Traffic Signs Manuals suggest this as good practice to minimise the overall size, and therefore the cost of making the sign!

Chris Williams

[Conekicker]

Hi!

Apart from the obvious howler with the number "A588" on it, it's not actually all that botched in reality, the only improvements I can think of are:–

(a) Raise the green Warrington Primary Route A56 panel so it's top edge is level with the top edge of the "Manchester M56" Motorway Panel;

(b) "Hotel" should have an initial capital H!

TSM Chapter 7 does permit the GSJ roundabout symbol and arms to be rotated clockwise or anticlockwise with respect to the horizontal if this better illustrates the junction layout, so it's not botched in that respect, nor is the practice of making route panels with corner indents to "tuck" route arm ends into – both the UK and Irish Traffic Signs Manuals suggest this as good practice to minimise the overall size, and therefore the cost of making the sign!

Chris Williams

TSM7

Cut outs Fig 5-4
Block spacing Fig 5-6
Delete "M.way", bracket (M6) and reposition.
N. WALES see Appendix C
EDR symbol incorrectly positioned
Before laying out the map-type symbol that way, I'd have tried it with the motorway arms horizontal, to see if the resulting sign both looked better and was of a more appropriate size.

Much of the other directional signing at the junction is equally shoddy.

[Chris56000]

Hi!

Some more botched No Through Road signs courtesy of Gwynedd Council (I posted a few weeks' ago about an incorrectly-placed and labelled sign in Bangor):

In Gerlan, above Bethesda, this was the only NTR sign on this road until fairly recently (last couple of years?)https://maps.app.goo.gl/aUBpBN8Z7gBKRHqHA It isn't actually correct, as the start of the NTR is further back but I can see why it was placed here as this is the last reasonable turning space. There is also a small NTR symbol on the roadsign for Ciltwllan going up to the left but I don't think that this ever had a standalone sign on a pole.

All well and (fairly) good but then I noticed this https://maps.app.goo.gl/Bfa9PQ4jGxkts3VRA and this https://maps.app.goo.gl/e23GA8K8FhVHCA1JA have appeared (both just visible here https://maps.app.goo.gl/bS6ffYNtsmQiawos7 ) The first of these is just awful, in both design and placement. Do the council not understand that the meaning and purpose of the NTR symbol is that once motorists have driven past the sign they will have to retrace their route and return to that same point i.e. they can't go through to anywhere? This is regardless of how many streets, junctions etc may be beyond the NTR sign - they don't need to turn the sign into a map to show the road layout ahead.

The second new sign on the side street isn't needed either (see below) but shows how inconsistent these incorrect placements are as, if the council feel that every individual street needs an NTR sign then why haven't they put one on the road opposite Ciltwllan (in the first link above) or include it as an arm on the 'street map' abomination?

To my understanding, the only NTR sign needs to be placed here https://maps.app.goo.gl/Pyw6iVq5FRYDcg7Q6 just after the junction with Morgan St. You could turn left up Morgan St and do two more left turns which is a 'through route' but if you drive any further ahead on Gerlan Road then you must retrace your route to end up back at this point i.e. no through road.

Any thoughts?

The "map–type" N.T.R. sign is prescribed in T.S.R.G.D. and was suggested in a long–obsolete version of the TSM Chapter 2 where some or all the roads may go for a considerable distance before they terminate and it's not immediately obvious that they are all dead–ends, or where the intermediate junctions to the side–branch dead–ends are a long way apart from each other.

Where a very small network (e.g., only two or three local streets) are all NTRs that all end within within a short walking distance then one sign on a pole at where the network opens onto the nearest through route is all that's needed!

Also, the N.T.R. sign doesn't necessarily indicate that there's no means of turning round to get back unless there is an additional sign erected confirming this, e.g., at the junction of St. John's Road and the A6 Dale Road just south of Matlock Town Centre, for example!

Chris Williams

[Klepsydra]

Red Lion Lane, Shooters Hill.

Feel free to follow down the road in search of the roundabout this sign is warning you of...

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4730018 ... 384!8i8192

[Conekicker]

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.48564 ... 6656?hl=en