Botched Roadsigns

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Euan
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Euan »

Big L wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 16:13 Small? Or far away?
The 11m must have been added in later, but then why would you have a sign suggesting there are motorway services very close by when they are 11 miles away? Maybe it was swapped with another sign within close proximity to the services instead of ordering an expensive replacement sign in its place.
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Big L
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Big L »

jgharston wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 21:59
Dougman wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 09:15
Big L wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 20:49 So much wrong in such little space.
Not to mention the "20 zone" signs in the background. I doubt that they would even be lawful if someone was prosecuted for speeding there? Oh, and we'll ignore the keep left bollard on the island.
Looks like a shopping centre further along. Private road?
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DB617
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by DB617 »

Euan wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 22:59
Big L wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 16:13 Small? Or far away?
The 11m must have been added in later, but then why would you have a sign suggesting there are motorway services very close by when they are 11 miles away? Maybe it was swapped with another sign within close proximity to the services instead of ordering an expensive replacement sign in its place.
I don't think I've seen a sign like that near a services before. Normally you'd have either a measurement or an arrow, surely. I'd guess that was an ordering cockup when Welsh-ising the signs post-WLA. Someone replaced the 11 with the Welsh version on the new sign and omitted all the useful information. Yay WLA and its half-hearted implementation!
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by doebag »

Mansell Street, Stratford on Avon

https://goo.gl/maps/kXJzz4pQ8xJ2

Sign on post opposite indicates 'One Way'. Arrow painted on roadway indicates 'turn right'
So why the words saying 'No Left turn' surely it should be right turn only or right turn ahead ?
And if they think you might turn left, should there be 'No Entry' signs
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

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doebag wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 18:35 Mansell Street, Stratford on Avon

https://goo.gl/maps/kXJzz4pQ8xJ2

Sign on post opposite indicates 'One Way'. Arrow painted on roadway indicates 'turn right'
So why the words saying 'No Left turn' surely it should be right turn only or right turn ahead ?
And if they think you might turn left, should there be 'No Entry' signs
There is a No entry sign. Very badly faded but there nonetheless.

There is no legal requirement other than to sufficiently inform the driver of what they are required to do. In this case it would be the Turn right vertical sign (Diagram 606), which can be expected to be reliably seen in all weather conditions, which the road markings cannot guarantee. Everything else is merely icing on the cake and these days, it could be argued, simply clutter.
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Conekicker »

Fail:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.77686 ... 6656?hl=en

Consistent at least:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.77485 ... 6656?hl=en

Shame. They were told as well. On at least two occasions. Still, one can't force people to listen, eh?

S12-2-4 refers.
Last edited by Conekicker on Sun Feb 17, 2019 21:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by doebag »

Conekicker wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 21:23
There is a No entry sign. Very badly faded but there nonetheless.

There is no legal requirement other than to sufficiently inform the driver of what they are required to do. In this case it would be the Turn right vertical sign (Diagram 606), which can be expected to be reliably seen in all weather conditions, which the road markings cannot guarantee. Everything else is merely icing on the cake and these days, it could be argued, simply clutter.
That has confused me even more. I could understand the No Entry signs being set back to allow access to the cinema car park or the car park next to it, but the signage prohibits the left turn to gain this access surely ?
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Conekicker »

doebag wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 21:34
Conekicker wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 21:23
There is a No entry sign. Very badly faded but there nonetheless.

There is no legal requirement other than to sufficiently inform the driver of what they are required to do. In this case it would be the Turn right vertical sign (Diagram 606), which can be expected to be reliably seen in all weather conditions, which the road markings cannot guarantee. Everything else is merely icing on the cake and these days, it could be argued, simply clutter.
That has confused me even more. I could understand the No Entry signs being set back to allow access to the cinema car park or the car park next to it, but the signage prohibits the left turn to gain this access surely ?
Looking on Streetview, it seems clear that the car park is accessed from the roundabout on Guild Street. I don't see what's confusing.
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Brigham »

Conekicker wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 21:30 Fail:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.77686 ... 6656?hl=en

Consistent at least:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.77485 ... 6656?hl=en

Shame. They were told as well. On at least two occasions. Still, one can't force people to listen, eh?

S12-2-4 refers.
Assuming that you know what 'park and ride' means, then I can't see anything confusing here.
I saw one near Sunderland recently which said 'park and walk', which is a long-winded way of saying 'car park'.
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Conekicker »

Brigham wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 16:13
Conekicker wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 21:30 Fail:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.77686 ... 6656?hl=en

Consistent at least:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.77485 ... 6656?hl=en

Shame. They were told as well. On at least two occasions. Still, one can't force people to listen, eh?

S12-2-4 refers.
Assuming that you know what 'park and ride' means, then I can't see anything confusing here.
I saw one near Sunderland recently which said 'park and walk', which is a long-winded way of saying 'car park'.
Confusing? No.
Incorrect and thus unlawful? Yes.
Patience is not a virtue - it's a concept invented by the dozy beggars who are unable to think quickly enough.
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Viator »

Conekicker wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 21:39
doebag wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 21:34
Conekicker wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 21:23
There is a No entry sign. Very badly faded but there nonetheless.

There is no legal requirement other than to sufficiently inform the driver of what they are required to do. In this case it would be the Turn right vertical sign (Diagram 606), which can be expected to be reliably seen in all weather conditions, which the road markings cannot guarantee. Everything else is merely icing on the cake and these days, it could be argued, simply clutter.
That has confused me even more. I could understand the No Entry signs being set back to allow access to the cinema car park or the car park next to it, but the signage prohibits the left turn to gain this access surely ?
Looking on Streetview, it seems clear that the car park is accessed from the roundabout on Guild Street. I don't see what's confusing.
(A former Stratfordian writes:)

What's confusing is that the "no entry" signs are set about 25 metres back from the Mansell Street / Windsor Street junction -- Windsor Street beyond (north of) the signs being two-way. It looks to me as if the intention when they were first installed was to allow access from Mansell Street to private frontages and entrances on Windsor Street as far as the no-entry "gate". GSV shows that in 2009 there was even a brief left-turn lane at the bottom of Mansell Street. By 2010, however, the private car park opposite the short terrace of houses and a shop had become a pay-and-display public car park and (almost certainly in consequence) the extra lane in Mansell Street had been hatched over and a painted "No left turn" added to the road surface.

It's all rather untidy to my mind, though. Are those 25 metres one-way or not? As I think you imply, "no entry" painted on the road is not a legal sign in itself. If there is really an immediate prohibition of movement northward along Windsor Street from its junction with Mansell Street (and that does seem to be the intention -- I wonder what the relevant traffic order says?) then the "no entry" signs should be moved to that point. This would also overcome the dubious legality of using "no entry" signs (to diagram 616) to prohibit entry to a two-way road (the northernmost part of Windsor Street). As I read the TSM, such signs can only be used to prohibit entry to a one-way road. Would any professionals care to comment?
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Viator »

DB617 wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 13:17
Euan wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 22:59
Big L wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 16:13 Small? Or far away?
The 11m must have been added in later, but then why would you have a sign suggesting there are motorway services very close by when they are 11 miles away? Maybe it was swapped with another sign within close proximity to the services instead of ordering an expensive replacement sign in its place.
I don't think I've seen a sign like that near a services before. Normally you'd have either a measurement or an arrow, surely. I'd guess that was an ordering cockup when Welsh-ising the signs post-WLA. Someone replaced the 11 with the Welsh version on the new sign and omitted all the useful information. Yay WLA and its half-hearted implementation!
While this sign clearly IS a very poorly remedied cock-up (somebody forgot to include the mileage when the sign was first ordered and/or made up), I don't believe that the botch has anything directly to do with the Welsh Language Act. I've been driving this motorway for 35 years plus (since well before implementation of the WLA 1993 anyway) and I can't remember a time when the M4 in Wales had monolingual signs. There is a sign not too far away on the opposite carriageway (and which looks to be of the same "vintage") indicating an 11-mile distance to the next services westward, but it has the full text of (equally font-sized!) "Services / Gwasanaethau / 11 m". [Have always hated that use of "m" for "miles", though!]
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by DB617 »

Viator wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 19:34
DB617 wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 13:17
Euan wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 22:59

The 11m must have been added in later, but then why would you have a sign suggesting there are motorway services very close by when they are 11 miles away? Maybe it was swapped with another sign within close proximity to the services instead of ordering an expensive replacement sign in its place.
I don't think I've seen a sign like that near a services before. Normally you'd have either a measurement or an arrow, surely. I'd guess that was an ordering cockup when Welsh-ising the signs post-WLA. Someone replaced the 11 with the Welsh version on the new sign and omitted all the useful information. Yay WLA and its half-hearted implementation!
While this sign clearly IS a very poorly remedied cock-up (somebody forgot to include the mileage when the sign was first ordered and/or made up), I don't believe that the botch has anything directly to do with the Welsh Language Act. I've been driving this motorway for 35 years plus (since well before implementation of the WLA 1993 anyway) and I can't remember a time when the M4 in Wales had monolingual signs. There is a sign not too far away on the opposite carriageway (and which looks to be of the same "vintage") indicating an 11-mile distance to the next services westward, but it has the full text of (equally font-sized!) "Services / Gwasanaethau / 11 m". [Have always hated that use of "m" for "miles", though!]
I guess that was just my assumption as to why the sign was replaced, but then given the age of the stretch it could also be original. It's just one of those situations that I run into as a technician where I think, "why did everyone involved in getting this *thing* into *place* look at this and decide it was okay?"
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Rob590 »

Spotted one today at on the eastbound off-slip of J36 on the M62, which can be seen very clearly from the motorway itself. Unfortunately Streetview only has an indication of the mess - the view from August 2016 shows a somewhat empty sign, which has now been filled with hideous patches of differing, questionable fonts - would enocurage anyone planning a trip that way who can to get their camera out to photgraph it!!
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by alice »

Rob590 wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 20:59 Spotted one today at on the eastbound off-slip of J36 on the M62, which can be seen very clearly from the motorway itself. Unfortunately Streetview only has an indication of the mess - the view from August 2016 shows a somewhat empty sign, which has now been filled with hideous patches of differing, questionable fonts - would enocurage anyone planning a trip that way who can to get their camera out to photgraph it!!
There's a slightly newer view from the main carriageway on GSV: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.70738 ... 312!8i6656
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Rob590 »

Ah yes there it is, a very botched example of patching!
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Brigham »

Conekicker wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 18:59
Brigham wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 16:13
Conekicker wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 21:30 Fail:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.77686 ... 6656?hl=en

Consistent at least:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.77485 ... 6656?hl=en

Shame. They were told as well. On at least two occasions. Still, one can't force people to listen, eh?

S12-2-4 refers.
Assuming that you know what 'park and ride' means, then I can't see anything confusing here.
I saw one near Sunderland recently which said 'park and walk', which is a long-winded way of saying 'car park'.
Confusing? No.
Incorrect and thus unlawful? Yes.
In other words, a fine example of The Law being an Ass.
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Chris Bertram »

Rob590 wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:01 Ah yes there it is, a very botched example of patching!
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by Big L »

Attack of the backwards roundabouts part 94. Wincanton, A371.
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Re: Botched Roadsigns

Post by TS »

This is surely, being charitable, an "inventive" use of the direction arrow??

https://goo.gl/maps/jKgk5qtfJ5Q2
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