Old 30 and 40 signs

[Paul]

The Dark Primary Green Signs thread reminded me to ask if anyone knows the story behind the changes to the style of the 3 and 4 numerals that must have occurred at least 40 years ago. The biggest giveaway is old 30 and 40 speed limit signs, especially repeaters, on suburban lampposts.

The 3 used to have a flat top with a sharp angle to the downstroke and, again, the angles on the 4 were sharper as well.

Why the change, when, and was it part of the 1963 overhaul? If so, there are some very old signs still out there...

[FosseWay]

There used to be a different 50, too. Some are still to be seen on the A61 Chesterfield ring road.

[beauchampboiler]

The A1214 (former A12 in Ipswich) is littered with old 40 repeaters between the A1189 and the A1156.

[nowster]

You do occasionally see Llewellyn-Smith (the old font) on motorway chainage markers, but most of them nowadays seem to be a mixture of Transport and Helvetica.

The roadsign font changed from Llewellyn-Smith to Transport, so the font used on speed limit signs changed also.

CBRD has a rough rendering of Llewellyn-Smith available here: http://www.cbrd.co.uk/media/fonts/

[DavidBrown]

The old 30 and 40 signs are basically pre-worboys, so yes, they did change in 1963.

There used to be a different 50, too. Some are still to be seen on the A61 Chesterfield ring road.

Really? Pre-worboys 50 signs are pretty much the rarest thing that you'll ever see on the roads - photos would be very much appreciated!

[FosseWay]

The old 30 and 40 signs are basically pre-worboys, so yes, they did change in 1963.

There used to be a different 50, too. Some are still to be seen on the A61 Chesterfield ring road.

Really? Pre-worboys 50 signs are pretty much the rarest thing that you'll ever see on the roads - photos would be very much appreciated!

It's always possible that the ones I'm on about are just an error, but they're definitely different, and that stretch of 50 predates by a long time the recent fashion for 50 limits.

A photo may be difficult, as IIRC they're on the stretch where no peds are allowed, and also I haven't any immediate plans to go that way. Next time I'm driving to Sheffield and aren't on my own, I'll try to remember to bully my wife into driving and take a pic!

[Truvelo]

Here's one on the A3400 north of Stratford. This road must have been one of the very first to have a blanket rural 50 limit.

There's also a pair of old 50 signs on a side road leading onto the A5 just to the east of M6 J12.

Were there any Llewellyn Smith 60's? The A45 between Birmingham and Coventry must be a candidate but all the current signs are in Transport.

[Steven]

There's some pre-Warboys 50 signs on the A5 in Staffordshire. I've got a picture somewhere (which I'm sure I've posted to SABRE before) but I can't lay my hands on it right now.

[wrinkly]

Pre-Worboys style flat-topped 3s continued to be normal on newly-installed 30 signs into the early 1970s. Maybe they had a supply of them to use up. I don't think I saw a round-topped 3 on a speed limit sign until about 1971.

[Bryn666]

It was possibly even as late as 1975, but I agree - the Queensways in Birmingham have some flat-top 30s and that wasn't finished until 1971.

[Paul]

It's always possible that the ones I'm on about are just an error, but they're definitely different, and that stretch of 50 predates by a long time the recent fashion for 50 limits.

A photo may be difficult, as IIRC they're on the stretch where no peds are allowed, and also I haven't any immediate plans to go that way. Next time I'm driving to Sheffield and aren't on my own, I'll try to remember to bully my wife into driving and take a pic!

I work just off the A61 in Chesterfield (Dunston Road) and can confirm the signage must, if anything, be either a modern facsimile of pre-Warboys "50" signs elsewhere, or, more likely, simply be the wrong font*. The signs cannot physically date back to that time since the road was opened in 1985.

*Reminds me, I've not been down the A12 around Old Ford (E London) for quite some time but remember most of the signs were really badly made (wrong font, kerning, positioning, etc).

[Truvelo]

It was possibly even as late as 1975, but I agree - the Queensways in Birmingham have some flat-top 30s and that wasn't finished until 1971.

Even as late as the early 2000's as one was installed on Spies Lane in Halesowen. It was removed shortly afterwards when the 40mph limit was reduced to 30

[WHBM]

It was common for pre-Warboys 30 signs to have Button Copy, that is for the figures to be traced with small reflectors. How many of these are left ? Also they seemed to be made in cast iron and then painted rather than on a flat steel sheet.

Regarding 60 mph, the A45 Birmingham to M45 was, I think, unique for some years in this respect, until well into the Worboys era.

50 mph seemed to come first to 3-lane roads (still a few of those left), but only in isolated places. The A5 in the Midlands would have been a good candidate.

[Sean Nelson]

on Mather Avenue in the south of Liverpool, you will see some old 40 signs there.

[scragend]

There's also an old style 40 sign in Wigan, on the way up from the Marus Bridge roundabout to J25 of the M6 (the limit increases from 30 as you pass the Shell garage, opposite Taybarns).

[PeterA5145]

The A34 Kingsway in Manchester, which I think had its speed limit increased from 30 to 40 in the late 50s or early 60s, still has a very impressive collection of pre-Worboys 30 and 40 terminal signs (although virtually all the repeaters are modern).

The signing was also done before the modern rules that require only one speed limit sign on the left hand side of a minor road with a lower speed limit, and has pairs of signs for even tiny cul-de-sacs.

[ravenbluemoon]

There was a lot of old 40 and 30 signs on the entrances to side roads on the Nottingham Ring Road (northern bit, around Sherwood estates). They were all took down earlier this year as a lot of the junctions were rebuilt.

[wrinkly]

The A34 Kingsway in Manchester, which I think had its speed limit increased from 30 to 40 in the late 50s or early 60s

I think it was about 1966, but it could have been a year or two earlier. Kingsway Extension (south of Parrs Wood, with the narrower central reservation) may have been 40 since its completion, which I think was 1960.

[Bryn666]

There used to be pre-worboys NSL signs (with button reflectors) on the A681 heading into Todmorden. However, Calderdale MBC recently replaced the 1950s tubular steel streetlighting columns with modern ones so the repeaters have been replaced with modern trunk road sized 450mm repeaters.

[Truvelo]

Old Button Copy NSL repeaters were really small, no bigger than the diameter of most lighting columns they were fitted to.