Old 30 and 40 signs

[PeterA5145]

The A34 Kingsway in Manchester, which I think had its speed limit increased from 30 to 40 in the late 50s or early 60s

I think it was about 1966, but it could have been a year or two earlier. Kingsway Extension (south of Parrs Wood, with the narrower central reservation) may have been 40 since its completion, which I think was 1960.

I'm sure Bryn has posted a photo from the Manchester archives showing an NSL/30 transition by the last houses on the Kingsway Extension.

[Bryn666]

Presumably that one. Note the pre-worboys NSL repeater too. Back in the day every single lighting column had one. The larger spacings we have today came about much later - probably 1981 (I recall older roads in Lancashire with modern (yet old looking) NSL repeaters virtually every other lamppost).

By comparison, here is the original start of the 30 limit on Princess Road (A5103):

[Bryn666]

Another view of the double-sided 30 terminal signs on one of Kingsway's many cul-de-sacs:



However, those two signs are offset and arguably make the limit unenforcable.

Many of the major side turns off Kingsway are of course now 20 Zones, but as part of Manchester's PFI all the cul-de-sacs sport brand new galvanised steel signposts holding up the original pre-worboys 30 roundels. It looks rather surreal.

[sydneynick]

But I'll bet you can't find any of the original 40 signs (on the Watford and Barnet bypasses, for example) where the 40 was displayed on a white square within a red circle.

[Bryn666]

No, those are well and truly gone now, but I did see a colour photograph of one of those once. I'm fairly sure the photo dated from the early 1980s.

I haven't worked out what the purpose of that experimental 40 limit sign was meant to be, but certainly it was gone by the 1957 TSRGD and replaced with the normal design.

[J--M--B]

Does not answer this question but just came across this fascinating report, I would recommend reading it.

The Times, Tuesday, Nov 22, 1955; pg. 11; Issue 53384; col D
Shortcomings Of Road Sign Proposals Lessons From The Continent FROM OUR MOTORING CORRESPONDENT.

[sydneynick]

I haven't worked out what the purpose of that experimental 40 limit sign was meant to be, but certainly it was gone by the 1957 TSRGD and replaced with the normal design.

The first 40 limits were introduced at the end of the fifties. Before then, the only limits were 30 and NSL. The white square on the 40 signs was intended to draw attention to the fact that it was different from 30.

[PeterA5145]

The A34 Kingsway in Manchester, which I think had its speed limit increased from 30 to 40 in the late 50s or early 60s

I think it was about 1966, but it could have been a year or two earlier. Kingsway Extension (south of Parrs Wood, with the narrower central reservation) may have been 40 since its completion, which I think was 1960.

I was just thinking about the houses on Kingsway Extension, and they are obviously either pre-war or early 50s, definitely not post-1960. And looking at the New Popular Edition map confirms my suspicion that this section of road was originally a residential dead-end stopping short at the Mersey.

I believe the southern extension of Princess Road which later became Princess Parkway was the same, although the map shows Princess Parkway already complete.

[WHBM]

Kingsway and Princess Road in Manchester were both built in the late 1920s, opened in stages about 1928, and both originally had trams running down the middle of the dual carriageway, these were the only two such sections of tramway in the city, known as the "Sleeper Tracks" in Manchester because the rails were on sleepers and ballast just like railway lines, rather than being set in the street surface.

Neither was originally a through main road, they were only later extended to be so. Kingsway extended as far as East Didsbury, later known as Parrs Wood, while on Princess Road the trams went as far as West Didsbury, Barlow Moor Road, then known as Southern Cemetery. Princess Road extended down into Wythenshawe, which was being developed at the same time, but the trams always terminated at Southern Cemetery, for they had been built that far by the early 1930s when Manchester policy changed and a long-term plan to remove the tram system and replace it with buses was introduced.

Kingsway connected at its north end into existing Slade Lane, originally a minor road, or by a dogleg under the railway bridge (still there on the A34) into Birchfields Road towards the city. Princess Road was worse, and at its northern end at Great Western Street in Hulme just plugged into a minor back-street pattern, sufficiently narrow that they had to be made into a very early one-way arrangement with trams separated into parallel streets, and round many corners as the pattern was not oriented towards the city at all. This was not swept away until the late 1950s with the redevelopment of Hulme.

The houses that line Kingsway, and the short cul-de-sacs towards the railway line, are classic 1930s development, along with much of the area. There was actually a feature on Granada TV news in the 1960s pointing out the wastefulness of putting up the 30 mph signs on all these cul-de-sacs when you couldn't even accelerate to 30 mph by the time you got to the end of the road !

My guess would be that, by their names, Kingsway was probably opened by King George V, and Princess Road by the Princess whoever.

[wrinkly]

The old-maps website shows Kingsway before WWII extending to the north bank of the Mersey, then existing again for a stretch each side of the A560 in Cheadle. Thus the housing development was facilitated but the expensive part of building the through road (bridges over the Mersey and two railways) was postponed.

Once in the 1960s I saw a pre-war plan for the extension of Princess Parkway (A5103) south of the A560. This was of course eventually built as the M56, opened 1972. The pre-war plan had a GSJ with the A560 which was a cross between a diamond and a 2-level roundabout: the roundabout was very elongated E-W along the A560 (the minor route) and very squashed in the N-S direction, more like a stretch of dual carriageway with a wide central reservation. The A5103 extension was generally D2 with a wide central reservation but reduced to S2 within the GSJ.

[traffic-light-man]

As with alot of things in Liverpool, these are something which seemed to hang on untill very recently. Now, it's mainly repeater disks that remain, for example, Mather Avenue (previously mentioned), Menlove Avenue and the A580 East Lancs are amongst some of the dual carriageway roads to have quite a few 40 repeaters still in situ.

There was, until a few months ago, a set of printed Lewellyn 40 signs in Farnworth near Widnes, with a set of button-copy NSLs on the other side, however these had already been recycled by the time I managed to get intouch with the people in charge.

[DavidNW9]

I've come across lots of old 30 and 40, both large and repeaters, but all painted on until I came across Bishops Avenue in East Finchley which has 12 repeaters, 8 of which have raised characters and outer rings.

[Truvelo]

I've driven this road hundreds of times but never realised there are four flat topped 30 signs here. Is this some kind of record? The other two can be seen by scrolling to the right.

[PeterA5145]

I've driven this road hundreds of times but never realised there are four flat topped 30 signs here. Is this some kind of record? The other two can be seen by scrolling to the right.

And there's a pair of old-style 40s on the back of the one you can see on StreetView. Given that the Hagley Road here has been bypassed, it's perhaps surprising that the West Midlands Speed Taliban haven't yet reduced it to 30.

[Truvelo]

Given that the Hagley Road here has been bypassed, it's perhaps surprising that the West Midlands Speed Taliban haven't yet reduced it to 30.

They have reduced the number of lanes though. It was S3 between here and the A456 roundabout until a couple of years ago.

[haymansafc]

An old 40 sign survives above the M53 at junction 8, here.

Another one did survive on the Merseyton Road approach, but that was sadly replaced about three years ago.

[Matt_EA_A14]

From a slightly different angle - are the speed limits indicated by these old signs legally enforceable, as they are not part of TRSGD?

[Chris Bertram]

I've driven this road hundreds of times but never realised there are four flat topped 30 signs here. Is this some kind of record? The other two can be seen by scrolling to the right.

And there's a pair of old-style 40s on the back of the one you can see on StreetView. Given that the Hagley Road here has been bypassed, it's perhaps surprising that the West Midlands Speed Taliban haven't yet reduced it to 30.

Dudley council haven't yet gone mad with abolishing urban 40s. The Broadway, in Dudley itself, is still 40 AFAIK between Priory Road and Burton Road, this stretch being dead straight although undulating. Back in Halesowen, Dudley Road and Haden Hill Road are still 40, changing to 30 only at the Sandwell MBC boundary.

[Chris Bertram]

From a slightly different angle - are the speed limits indicated by these old signs legally enforceable, as they are not part of TRSGD?

I believe they have "grandfather" exemptions from immediate removal, unlike the pre-Worboys direction signs, because all that changed was the typeface of the numbers, not the concept of the design itself. I could do a search around Birmingham for a number of old-style flat-topped 30s and pointy 40s that still survive.

[Steven]

Dudley council haven't yet gone mad with abolishing urban 40s.

Neither have Wolverhampton CC, who had a policy at one time of A class dual carriageways = 40 limit, with the exception of A4124 through Heath Town.

I can't think of a stretch of D2 (or greater) that isn't a 40 limit in the city, and indeed the A41 through the NW suburbs is a 40 limit beyond Tettenhall Green, even though it is S2, as is the Wednesfield Bypass section of A4124 which opened in the late 1990s.