New signs made a bit like old ones

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DavidNW9
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New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by DavidNW9 »

I just found two signs in Teddington made far more like the pre-Worboys style than current (besides the inevitable use of ghastly Letraset) and will add some more I've found previously. Some do have modern alternatives, others like the school sign probably don't and are up to the council to design. Most are already in the gallery but so many now I think they warrant a thread in case anyone else finds some more as well.

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I've seen three pre-Worboys signs with red lettering so presume they carried the tradition here.

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Both in Teddington

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North Circular, Neasden

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Esher


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Belt and braces job in Crouch End

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The famous very close copy in Sutton under the genuine triangle


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Aldwych


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Colliers Wood

I'm not sure if the last two vary from official but can say the ones I usually see are white lower case on blue or red so probably do.
And finally something that looks to me like a Blue Peter DIY job but may actually be pretty old. If anyone can ID this as PW let me know.

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Re: New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by B1040 »

Sometimes old signs have red writing because the black paint has faded.
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Re: New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by worcsfan »

There is what appears to be a 'homemade'- paint or plastic on metal though- 5 mph sign under the Broad Gate in Ludlow.

Certainly not the Transport font or usual size of lettering.
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Re: New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by DavidNW9 »

The fading is interesting, I recently added a mauve sign that appeared to have been painted in black, which was next to a stripy metal barrier of the same colours. A brown background one (not many of them) had faded to a greyish colour while its partner facing the other way was a chocolate colour. But the red signs were two for children (including mine), a narrow road (still on the Isle of Wight I hope) and HALT while 'at main road ahead' remained in black.
But besides the really old and worn danger children in Liverpool the others looked like new as had been well maintained.

I wonder how national signs do slip through the system, clearly all the botched ones there have, mine may not be badly made mistakes but just part of a system wider than we may realise. I'm now dreaming of a blue edged arrow with upper case letters being made to replace a few removed near me. You never know, especially as the government appear to class all arrows as fingerposts which can be made at the borough's discretion. I have challenged a few to make some of their white ones with the black triangle on the arrowhead but most seemed to young to know what I was on about. But they varied so little from the other types some places still have both sharing the same poles.
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Re: New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by DavidNW9 »

Fantastic! I can now report LB Camden have just put two Worboys blue border signs in Hampstead. I've never seen a single example of a post 1992 or whenever they stopped direction sign with a blue border at all, and these two have the original 1964 wide ones. I'd have been a million times happier (I lead a very quiet life as you can tell) if they'd done them in upper case with integral arrows in the white panel but a move in the right direction.
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Re: New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by Bryn666 »

DavidNW9 wrote:Fantastic! I can now report LB Camden have just put two Worboys blue border signs in Hampstead. I've never seen a single example of a post 1992 or whenever they stopped direction sign with a blue border at all, and these two have the original 1964 wide ones. I'd have been a million times happier (I lead a very quiet life as you can tell) if they'd done them in upper case with integral arrows in the white panel but a move in the right direction.
Only fantastic if they have specific authorisation, otherwise they are non-prescribed direction signs and an unlawful obstruction - a lawyer could have a field day claiming they were contributory factors in an accident (say, someone confused...). :cop: :shock:
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Re: New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by J N Winkler »

Bryn666 wrote:Only fantastic if they have specific authorisation, otherwise they are non-prescribed direction signs and an unlawful obstruction - a lawyer could have a field day claiming they were contributory factors in an accident (say, someone confused...). :cop: :shock:
I certainly wouldn't want to imply that noncompliant signs are somehow minimally acceptable, let alone good, but I was under the impression that in order for the obstruction argument to hold water in court, it would be necessary to show not only that the sign was placed without lawful authority, but also that it was situated so as to impede the lawful travel of vehicles, which generally would imply a footing or base within what would otherwise be considered the traveled way. In other words, an obstruction argument could plausibly be sustained for a traffic island which had (say) a Keep right sign instead of a Keep left sign, or for an illegal sign over a footway, but not an illegal sign behind the kerbline in a rural area with no footway.
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Re: New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by DavidNW9 »

Bryn, just a guess, do you work for the council?

Anyway, if you or anyone else really wants to report these two go ahead, I've got my photos now

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I did also check the law and it says any sign can be approved by the secretary of state. There are plenty of normal modern direction signs using capitals plus a growing number of no through road signs in modern transport font.

The counter argument I have is the hundreds of pre-Worboys signs removed in London and not replaced at all. Would you rather be at said junctions with no directions at all or a little help with the wrong font or border? I would suggest just a whiff of jobsworth in the air here...

Having just streetviewed the previous signs it appears they have simply kept what was there already and fixed them up but the appearance of these is like new while the others they've done are clearly repainted. Either way the result is what was there has now been restored to its original condition somehow, as the result is the same I doubt the details matter.
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Re: New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by Truvelo »

There's this one in Wolverhampton which appears to be brand new. The font doesn't look quite right.

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Re: New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by Steven »

Truvelo wrote:There's this one in Wolverhampton which appears to be brand new. The font doesn't look quite right.
Exactly where is that?
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Re: New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by Truvelo »

Steven wrote:
Truvelo wrote:There's this one in Wolverhampton which appears to be brand new. The font doesn't look quite right.
Exactly where is that?
Just below this streetlight here.
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Re: New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by Bryn666 »

DavidNW9 wrote:Bryn, just a guess, do you work for the council?
I have done bits for councils here and there if that's what you mean, yeah :wink:

I'm not, and I doubt any other sign professional or not would be, going to report your chunky bordered signs, as it's just unprofessional to send emails to areas outside of your local authority as an engineer, but I would suggest that next time they pay a sign manufacturer who has a copy of Chapter 7 and actually doesn't just replicate the old sign.

What bothers me though is that we have local authorities with clearly no signing knowledge whatsoever. How are they allowed to run their highway network if they aren't aware of the basic requirements of road signs today?

As it stands, if I find any decent quality pre-worboys signs in my patch I'd want them retained. On roads with traffic speeds below 30 mph I can't see a logical reason for eliminating the old signs as the DfT are demanding of local authorities. However, if the signs are knackered why go to the cost of preserving them? It's better to move on with the times and replace with a legal and compliant modern sign. The taxpayer doesn't usually appreciate money being thrown at repainting and repairing 45-50 year old equipment when it can be replaced for much less.
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Re: New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by Haydn1971 »

DavidNW9 wrote:I did also check the law and it says any sign can be approved by the secretary of state.
Well, its their nominated representative - typically someone at the DfT in London, I'm perhaps sticking my neck out, but I really can't see them approving some of these old signs as they just aren't relevant anymore.

Its more likely that these old style new signs are just knock down replacements ordered by some junior admin assistant with a photo of the old sign - Why the sign shop doesn't actually question these replacements is another thing...
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Re: New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by Truvelo »

How are these signs being produced? Surely software like Keysign and Signplot wouldn't have templates for obsolete styles like Pre Worboys and thick blue borders?
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Re: New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by Haydn1971 »

No they don't, but a sign shop doesn't use KeySIGN or Signplot, they have something else, the name of which escapes me, but its something like "Sign Shop Studio"

When signs are made, they are made in parts, the wide borders are just cut to suit, the text is cut on a scribe machine, a bit of masking tape laid over the front then the backing pealed of along with the bits that aren't needed, so really, any font in the scribe machine control software could be used - these machines are used for doing all types of signs for shops, so I guess would include support for many font types
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Re: New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by boing_uk »

Haydn1971 wrote:Why the sign shop doesn't actually question these replacements is another thing...
If they were as good as Signways in Basingstoke then they *would* enquire as to the legalities or otherwise.

Thats why I would trust Signways to put up any of my signs and no other. And their guys are a brilliant third-hand check because they know what its going on, even if its managed to pass through a first and second check at the customer end.

At the end of the day, if a sign manufacturer has let a crap sign be erected on street, what does it say about THEIR quality control? There are plenty of companies out there who can manufacture signs... but how many are suitably qualified to make CORRECT signs..??
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Re: New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by Mattemotorway »

I found an example in a place called Sand Hutton near York... There's a T-junction where a pre-Warboys sign stands, but the part directing to Stamford Bridge is newer as it's in transport, but in capitals, and the sign also has no border...
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Re: New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by Chris5156 »

Bryn666 wrote:What bothers me though is that we have local authorities with clearly no signing knowledge whatsoever. How are they allowed to run their highway network if they aren't aware of the basic requirements of road signs today?
I am happy to 'out' the London Boroughs of Brent and Southwark as being completely incompetent with regard to road sign design. Both come up with black-on-white direction signs that are wonky in every regard: arrows wrong, borders wrong, corners cut off sharp instead of rounded, wrong font or lettering squashed horizontally or vertically, capital letters everywhere, spacing awry... Not just here and there, but on virtually every sign they erect.

Yuck yuck yuck.
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Re: New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by DavidNW9 »

Here's another replica in North Finchley, but besides the N possibly being a bit too wide (someone will know) it really looks like a proper one from a distance. I'm glad they've tried to get the font right unlike the dodgy one a couple of miles away in Finchley Central made by the council. Although it has modern rails on the back they appear to have been added later as the rivets on the front show.

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By the way, does anyone know when reflective signs first arrived?
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Re: New signs made a bit like old ones

Post by CrackersA361 »

I've seen a few in Stow on the Wold recently, will go down and get some shots on my next day off :)
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