Pre-Worboys or not?

Discussion about street lighting, road signs, traffic signals - and all other street furniture - goes here.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
User avatar
DavidNW9
Member
Posts: 1634
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 18:16
Location: London NW9
Contact:

Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by DavidNW9 »

Now I'm helping on the Flickr pre-Worboys pool I often come across signs which are not known from the national system, and so far the ones people have been able to identify have roughly divided 50-50 PW or not. But the more we find the more questions arise so as there are far more people here who know I'm copying over the 'Is it PW or not?' thread from there as it's getting quite busy and gathering dust.

I'll kick off with the council issued street names. How do we classify them when they include the road number in the official style like this?

ImageSouthwark Bridge Rd by David Howard, on Flickr

I'll add in the rest later today but some aren't mine so may have to link them.
Last edited by DavidNW9 on Tue Aug 15, 2023 03:18, edited 1 time in total.
DavidBrown
Member
Posts: 8398
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 00:35

Re: Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by DavidBrown »

Street name signs are extremely difficult to date, especially if they are of a unique style. They are the only signs I don't include on DRAS for precisely that reason.

However, there can be exceptions - such as yours. It has a road number which, whilst may be slightly more common in London, is unknown anywhere else, and are definately worth snapping. It's without doubt pre-worboys as it is in the standard font and colours.
t1(M)
Member
Posts: 7281
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2002 23:15
Location: kingston-upon-thames

Re: Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by t1(M) »

DavidBrown wrote: It has a road number which, whilst may be slightly more common in London, is unknown anywhere else, .
This style used to be quite common in the LB Southwark, (although they are disappearing fast) but I've not seen them anywhere else: in London or elsewhere.
User avatar
DavidNW9
Member
Posts: 1634
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 18:16
Location: London NW9
Contact:

Re: Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by DavidNW9 »

I've put four in the gallery at the A110 junction in Barnet, and another has just surfaced on the Isle of Wight. Of course the numbers are identical to the free standing ones, but the problem is does the local authority road name or the national system number take precedence, or do they cancel each other out?

Here are the other of my mysteries plus the four Barnets as described. I hand them over to the jury.

Image

Perfect style and font, but No Parking? That was never official was it, although this is on a main road?

Image

Image

Right construction, on a public road, but horrific font and looks brand new

Image

and here's a road number outside Southwark, complete with flat 3. But presumably councils had the option to add road numbers but few took it up.
Last edited by DavidNW9 on Tue Aug 15, 2023 03:20, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
DavidNW9
Member
Posts: 1634
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 18:16
Location: London NW9
Contact:

Re: Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by DavidNW9 »

Unlike the ubiquitous red circle I've seen mostly council issued no cycling signs PW, but there was a national one as well. I have now seen a photo in a museum with this sign shown, presumably as the national standard one

Image

which coincidentally I had only found myself days earlier, compared to this one

Imagecycling Temple Gds by David Howard, on Flickr

which I have seen all over the place. Maybe there were two options as I can't see how the second one would have so many surviving examples across London if not a stock design as well as the first one I've only seen once.
Last edited by DavidNW9 on Tue Aug 15, 2023 03:22, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
DavidNW9
Member
Posts: 1634
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 18:16
Location: London NW9
Contact:

Re: Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by DavidNW9 »

Another query. Despite trawling the many old catalogues online I have yet to remember (or find) what announced the entry to a one way street. Obviously the new ones are a simple white arrow, but the old ones I know are the 'One way street' plus arrow which are continuation signs on the sides of the road. I also had no recollection of the previous 'no right turn' signs, which said just that.

So besides the one way street signs along them, does anyone know what was put at the starts of them?
DavidBrown
Member
Posts: 8398
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 00:35

Re: Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by DavidBrown »

I think that it was just the 'One Way Road' signs that were used at the start of the road - there's a good example of it in Yeovil. Remember that in the original worboys signs, there was an equivalent sideways arrow with 'One Way' below - this was also, I believe, used at the start of many one-way streets.
User avatar
DavidNW9
Member
Posts: 1634
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 18:16
Location: London NW9
Contact:

Re: Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by DavidNW9 »

I think I've cracked the narrow road sign, as the neighbouring council uses these and the one I found today uses the same type in their official colours.

Image

That shows councils can issue modern road signs as well (although very rarely do besides local buildings etc) and therefore the narrow road would be a modern council issue, although had they kept the MOT font would be impossible to distinguish from the real thing.
Last edited by DavidNW9 on Tue Aug 15, 2023 03:23, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
DavidNW9
Member
Posts: 1634
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 18:16
Location: London NW9
Contact:

Re: Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by DavidNW9 »

Here's a good one, the style and construction are definitely correct, but although on a public road I'm wondering if this was one of the funny council issued ones attached to road names, like cul-de-sac and no through roads but all on one line. But then again panels with information other than variations on those are usually PW from the national system so may be one through that rule. Of course the speed limits would have had the usual size panels alone but presumably different if they gave a reason for it? And why would any dedicated road be unmade as well I wonder, as this was from its beginning.

ImageDruids Close by David Howard, on Flickr
Last edited by DavidNW9 on Fri Aug 11, 2023 02:06, edited 1 time in total.
AndyB
SABRE Developer
Posts: 11055
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 21:58
Location: Belfast N Ireland
Contact:

Re: Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by AndyB »

By the font, I'd say pre-worboys.
User avatar
MotorwayGuy
Member
Posts: 1000
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 15:37
Location: S.E. London

Re: Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by MotorwayGuy »

Image

This font actually seems quite common, something about it seems american to me.

Not sure if this one could be pre worboys though?
User avatar
DavidNW9
Member
Posts: 1634
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 18:16
Location: London NW9
Contact:

Re: Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by DavidNW9 »

That one isn't, Elmbridge council in Surrey issues them as well and am gradually finding more and more who are using pressed metal in theirs. At least they've realised the durability and means they can be repainted indefinitely. Glad more are turning up though but a shame they don't use a traditional font rather than these dodgy ones which are like the narrow American types.

ImageElmbridge sign by David Howard, on Flickr

I'm 100% certain of the font and design of my latest, but wondered whether it was either privately issued (there was no sign to that effect but would a council leave a road unmade?) or by said council who left it as such?
Just like the green one above councils issue their own signs outside the national system which could look like the others but are free to use any design they want. My only question on this is whether it was issued as an official national sign or just used the style of the time for something locally made.
Last edited by DavidNW9 on Fri Aug 11, 2023 02:07, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
skiddaw05
Member
Posts: 2036
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 21:33
Location: Norwich

Re: Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by skiddaw05 »

DavidBrown
Member
Posts: 8398
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 00:35

Re: Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by DavidBrown »

DavidNW9 wrote:Here's a good one, the style and construction are definitely correct, but although on a public road I'm wondering if this was one of the funny council issued ones attached to road names, like cul-de-sac and no through roads but all on one line. But then again panels with information other than variations on those are usually PW from the national system so may be one through that rule. Of course the speed limits would have had the usual size panels alone but presumably different if they gave a reason for it? And why would any dedicated road be unmade as well I wonder, as this was from its beginning.

Image
The sign itself will almost certaintly be from before 1964, though it wouldn't suprise me if the road was a private road at the time it was put up - I'm sure the council when taking it over would have been more than happy at saving themselves a few quid by glancing over the TSRGD.

skiddaw - customised place name signs can be difficult to date (though, of course, standard ones are easy to differentiate). I would say that it's from before 1964, though I'm not quite sure as to whether or not that would make it pre-worboys.
User avatar
toowise
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 23:57
Location: Cheshire, England

Re: Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by toowise »

Some photos I took today in East Lothian area ...


http://www.flickr.com/photos/47281259@N ... 508617752/


these were on unclassified roads near to Humbie. Also saw quite a few similar ones but due to the vehicle I was driving (see one of the photos) I couldnt stop to take more.

Please excuse photo quality I was using a compact point and shoot camera.
Dont forget the shiny side stays UP !!!
User avatar
DavidNW9
Member
Posts: 1634
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 18:16
Location: London NW9
Contact:

Re: Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by DavidNW9 »

Technically as it's on the PW query thread I can point out (pun intended, someone had to say it) those are fingerposts, the main distinction is they lack arrowheads at the point. Therefore an identical pair of signs where one is missing an arrowhead and box around the sign oblong makes it into a fingerpost, and immune from the Worboys axe.
User avatar
toowise
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 23:57
Location: Cheshire, England

Re: Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by toowise »

I stand corrected DavidNW9, I'm still learning whats what on here,

note to self....must try harder.
Dont forget the shiny side stays UP !!!
User avatar
DavidNW9
Member
Posts: 1634
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 18:16
Location: London NW9
Contact:

Re: Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by DavidNW9 »

That's OK toowise- since I joined a pool on Flickr I had to learn all the differences so we could keep the right signs in. Only remembering the common ones from the 60s and 70s there are new ones popping up all the time which you'd either need to remember personally or find out what they are before they can go in the genuine list or not. There are still some uncertain ones, including any including 'no parking' on as the official ones said 'no waiting'. Normally you'd find these on a private road so instantly know they were home made (and all different). But I also found one on a public road and still no idea who made it and when. But that makes it more interesting as well and most get a decision sooner or later.

In the last week I've got the dangerous surface sign, clearly old but would a public road have an unmade surface?, and two proper blue arrows pointing to a church just down the road, which were normally on plain white arrows for council issue. But by putting it on a national format have no idea if the councils were able to issue proper direction signs for their own buildings. You'd probably need someone who worked for the council in the 50s for that one.

David, the place names are council issued and the same as street names, ie are free to make anything legible within the size restrictions so unaffected by national rules.
User avatar
DavidNW9
Member
Posts: 1634
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 18:16
Location: London NW9
Contact:

Re: Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by DavidNW9 »

Two enamel signs, one in Shepherds Bush and one in Tottenham. I suspect both are pre-pre-Worboys and made before any national regulations. Any ideas?

Image

ImageNTR W12 by David Howard, on Flickr
Last edited by DavidNW9 on Tue Aug 15, 2023 03:25, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
DavidNW9
Member
Posts: 1634
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 18:16
Location: London NW9
Contact:

Re: Pre-Worboys or not?

Post by DavidNW9 »

Two more today in Clandon Surrey.
The first is a fingerpost, I know that, but they've mounted it on two poles and it only has one side where most have two even when the other faces the pavement. But lacking the terminal arrowhead unless there were non-standard signs I didn't know about doubt that whatever you do with a fingerpost can turn it into anything else.

Image

The second is a private one, and there were definitely dangerous corner signs with red triangles on but were any like this? That is purely a memory issue or if one is on the old sign manuals but I don't remember seeing any like this myself.

ImageDangerous corner Clandon by David Howard, on Flickr

So did any pre-Worboys normal arrow signs have no arrowhead besides the RAC ones which had a line separating the road number from the place name and blank at the end like this, and did they have dangerous corner signs like this officially?
Last edited by DavidNW9 on Tue Aug 15, 2023 01:01, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply