Botched Traffic Signals

[jouef]

[Sun Jan 04, 2015 16:58] I often use this junction, at Dunstable, always at night. The two sets of signals, for the crossing and the junction, are difficult enough distinguish between for someone who knows them. Would it be better,(safer?) if the ped crossing was combined with the junction. David

Here is the insane pelican a car's length from the junction on Penny Lane (yes, the one in the song) where traffic is held on red while crossing the A562 on green. If the phasing was altered, pedestrians could cross with the junction instead of separately without any modification to the layout. Several of these in the area; not sure if they are common elsewhere?

[traffic-light-man]

Here is the insane pelican a car's length from the junction on Penny Lane

It's not a Pelican, it's just a regular ped crossing. Seperately signalled ped crossings on the exit to junctions is very common in Liverpool, particularly at dual carriageway installations, though they seem to be less common elsewhere.

The different thing about this one is that the signals at the ped crossing normally hold turning traffic, whereas these appear to hold through-traffic. I've never really noticed the operation of this junction, though the almost-separately signalled right turn lane that uses 4-aspect right turn signals has always struck me as unusual!

[jouef]

It's not a Pelican, it's just a regular ped crossing.

OK, many thanks.

Seperately signalled ped crossings on the exit to junctions is very common in Liverpool, particularly at dual carriageway installations, though they seem to be less common elsewhere.

So they are something of a local idiosyncrasy then?

The different thing about this one is that the signals at the ped crossing normally hold turning traffic, whereas these appear to hold through-traffic.

Yes, others close by let you turn left or right on green, for example onto the 40mph A5058, to be faced within two car lengths with a crossing on red with pedestrians on it. Always seemed nuts to me, though the accident rates would speak for themselves and maybe they aren't significant at these spots? Next time I'm in the area I'll have a look at the almost-separately signalled right turn lane that you mentioned struck you as unusual. [edited: A5085 changed to A5058]

[jouef]

I've never really noticed the operation of this junction, though the almost-separately signalled right turn lane that uses 4-aspect right turn signals has always struck me as unusual!

Thanks for the heads-up; I watched the A562/Penny Lane junction tonight, a crossroads complicated by Smithdown Place splitting either side of a large island to once accommodate a turning circle for trams with a cafe (currently being redeveloped) and defunct public conveniences still on it. The lanes and lights seem to keep all in order very neatly, and the unusual right turn you mention seems to make sense in context - just that crazy pedestrian crossing which, although I now see is phased with the junction, holds traffic across the A562 carriageway following a button-press.

Then a couple of hundred yards away there's the A562/A5058/B5180 lights, controlling the junction of twenty two lanes of traffic, still relying on give-ways splodged onto the tarmac (pictured) to stop right-turners colliding with those obeying a green filter to go straight across, despite dozens of prangs over the years. I think it's been tidied up a bit with increased filtering, but without complete separation its layout is still confusing enough to cause collisions.

[Gareth]

I've never really noticed the operation of this junction, though the almost-separately signalled right turn lane that uses 4-aspect right turn signals has always struck me as unusual!

Yes, it's weird. There doesn't appear to be a stopline either, so it appears they're just secondary signal heads which only exist due to the protected right turn arrows. I don't think that intersection's been remodelled since there were tin lanterns there, so it's been like that for the best part of half a century.

Another weird one is this one in town....

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.40510 ... 6656?hl=en

It's a secondary signal with no primary counterparts or stopline. It appears to only exist in order to let turning motorists know if the oncoming traffic has a red light or not. When the oncoming lights are on red, the green arrow appears. Otherwise, it just shows the green ball. I don't know when it goes to red, probably briefly at the end of the protected turn stage so it can reset. This is a situation where the French-style cross aspect would come in handy.

[traffic-light-man]

A5058_A562_30Aug2015_473k.jpg

Then a couple of hundred yards away there's the A562/A5058/B5180 lights, controlling the junction of twenty two lanes of traffic, still relying on give-ways splodged onto the tarmac (pictured) to stop right-turners colliding with those obeying a green filter to go straight across, despite dozens of prangs over the years. I think it's been tidied up a bit with increased filtering, but without complete separation its layout is still confusing enough to cause collisions.

I think the right-hand give way markings in this shot are redundant now as they split the signalling for ahead and right last year, as you say. On a whole, though, I often feel that that junction complex could be entirely re-modelled in a much better way.

This is another right turn that has always struck me as botched, particularly for a HA road. A two-lane right that has to give way?

Another weird one is this one in town....

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.40510 ... 6656?hl=en

It's a secondary signal with no primary counterparts or stopline. It appears to only exist in order to let turning motorists know if the oncoming traffic has a red light or not. When the oncoming lights are on red, the green arrow appears. Otherwise, it just shows the green ball. I don't know when it goes to red, probably briefly at the end of the protected turn stage so it can reset. This is a situation where the French-style cross aspect would come in handy.

I don't think I've ever seen this, or it's old Mellor counterpart on red to be honest, but then I don't think I've paid attention to notice. Does it change at all, or does the arrow just go on and off?

It's also strange that Mount Pleasant is completely unsignalled there.

[Gareth]

I don't actually know. Like you, I've never paid attention. I assume it does. I guess that at the end of the 'green ball & right arrow' stage, it goes up to red very briefly, before returning to green without the arrow. That's what happens with those secondary signals at that Smithdown Road/Penny Lane sight, when there's no demand from actual Penny Lane.

There's a similar example of a side road joining a signalised main road further up Mount Pleasant here...

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.40343 ... 6656?hl=en

But there's no lone secondary head.

[scynthius726]

I wonder if that junction could be a rare example of a legitimate use for a single aspect green arrow head.

[traffic-light-man]

There's a similar example of a side road joining a signalised main road further up Mount Pleasant here...

Link

But there's no lone secondary head.

There's another advanced signal like that, here. I quite like the idea, I think the Mount Pleasant one was for busses turning right out the continuation of Mount Pleasant at the TOTSO, here.

I wonder if that junction could be a rare example of a legitimate use for a single aspect green arrow head.

Is it ever legitimate to use a single aspect green arrow without special authorisation?

[Squigs]

It looks like that junction with the lone secondary signal has only one primary signal for traffic heading in the opposite direction. There is no secondary signal.

That must be unusual in its self, especially on a two lane road?

[Gareth]

It does have a secondary. It's just facing the wrong way on the latest images...

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.40508 ... 6656?hl=en

[MotorwayGuy]

Many years ago, there used to be a lone Mellor arrow where this head now is, but the signals have been replaced twice since then.

[Gareth]

A shame they replaced those Peek Elites with those fugly TSEU signals.

[Chris Bertram]

Is it ever legitimate to use a single aspect green arrow without special authorisation?

Dunno, but I'm pretty sure there's one at the left turn from Meadow Lane onto Lady Bay Bridge in Nottingham. Maybe ForestChav can confirm if it's still there?

[jouef]

Yes, it's weird. There doesn't appear to be a stopline either

There is a pathetic streak of white across the right turn which fizzles out completely after a few feet, so you're absolutely right: 'There doesn't appear to be a stopline ...'
[edit 21/12/16: this stopline has now been fully repainted after resurfacing the road]

[boing_uk]

I think what is worse is that displaced ped crossing on the immediate exit.

Interesting stop line material too. Inset markings? Very old skool.

[Bryn666]

Not a botch as such but I was surprised to see Mellor heads on piles in barrels at the Raith interchange retrofitted with 200mm new style arrows.

[boing_uk]

TSC used to do 200mm arrows in Mellors.

[traffic-light-man]

Interesting stop line material too. Inset markings? Very old skool.

They're quite common around the older junctions in town, along with similar style ped crossing markings and sometime even arrows.

Not a botch as such but I was surprised to see Mellor heads on piles in barrels at the Raith interchange retrofitted with 200mm new style arrows.

This is quite a nice example of the TSC gear, with an in-line 4 and two ped heads, all at 200mm.

[Bryn666]

Aha, that clears that up!