Botched Traffic Signals

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MotorwayGuy
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by MotorwayGuy »

jnty wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:15 Green ball when right turn signal is red.

Doubt there's any particular safety risk here particularly given it's positioned to the left, but I do wonder if it renders a red on the right turn signal unenforceable. I wonder if it's trying to make up for the lack of a left turn filter arrow anywhere?
If you go back a few years you can see the old Mellor signals had the stop line placed where the signal with the ahead arrow is so the left turn was uncontrolled. It looks like this was an oversight when the layout was altered and so the easiest option at the last minute was to replace the arrow with a green ball.
L.J.D wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 16:42
MotorwayGuy wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 16:19 There's no pedestrian facilities either despite the urban location, it all needs renewing with modern equipment.
It's like the total opposite of the other thread where places have too many signals. Which is annoying given you've got installations like this. My guess is they replaced it like for like with the Mellor installation that was there before. Because alot of them had no crossing facilities at cross roads like those back in the day. It just looks dangerous and lazily designed.
I was thinking the exact same thing. KCC replaced pretty much replaced all their signal heads with this type around 2008/9, even fairly new Peek Elite installations but in most cases they just replaced everything like for like. One exception was this this one in Gravesend, where pedestrian facilities were added (you can see the work being done).
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by jnty »

MotorwayGuy wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 23:24
jnty wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:15 Green ball when right turn signal is red.

Doubt there's any particular safety risk here particularly given it's positioned to the left, but I do wonder if it renders a red on the right turn signal unenforceable. I wonder if it's trying to make up for the lack of a left turn filter arrow anywhere?
If you go back a few years you can see the old Mellor signals had the stop line placed where the signal with the ahead arrow is so the left turn was uncontrolled. It looks like this was an oversight when the layout was altered and so the easiest option at the last minute was to replace the arrow with a green ball.
Ah yes that makes sense. Odd that they added an entirely new signal and didn't just give it an ahead and left filter?
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traffic-light-man
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by traffic-light-man »

MotorwayGuy wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 23:24I was thinking the exact same thing. KCC replaced pretty much replaced all their signal heads with this type around 2008/9, even fairly new Peek Elite installations but in most cases they just replaced everything like for like. One exception was this this one in Gravesend, where pedestrian facilities were added (you can see the work being done).
Kent had a comprehensive LED replacement scheme, one of the earliest ones IIRC. They generally replaced everything wholesale with the Microsense/Telent 3G signal heads. Even in your example linked to there, they're installing Microsense MSH but jumping forward they've been replaced with 3Gs - those MSHs must've been short lived!
jnty wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 16:52
MotorwayGuy wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 23:24
jnty wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:15 Green ball when right turn signal is red.

Doubt there's any particular safety risk here particularly given it's positioned to the left, but I do wonder if it renders a red on the right turn signal unenforceable. I wonder if it's trying to make up for the lack of a left turn filter arrow anywhere?
If you go back a few years you can see the old Mellor signals had the stop line placed where the signal with the ahead arrow is so the left turn was uncontrolled. It looks like this was an oversight when the layout was altered and so the easiest option at the last minute was to replace the arrow with a green ball.
Ah yes that makes sense. Odd that they added an entirely new signal and didn't just give it an ahead and left filter?
A pedestrian crossing has been added across the left turn as well during that refurb. I suppose it's a bit strange that there isn't a pair (or even trio) of signal heads with substitute green arrows for the left turn along with a stop line for it, but I do wonder if there was a concern that any signal heads on the left turn slip might be obscured by the foliage and wall. A 'trek' backwards on GSV would support that theory as the poles disappear out of view quite quickly. I'm not sure I'd be going for a full green on the newer primary, though.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

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jnty wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:15 Green ball when right turn signal is red.

Doubt there's any particular safety risk here particularly given it's positioned to the left, but I do wonder if it renders a red on the right turn signal unenforceable. I wonder if it's trying to make up for the lack of a left turn filter arrow anywhere?
It seems to have been messed up when the junction was changed. Look at older streetviews, and you'll see that the stop line was further forward. The left turn was ahead of the signals, with just a give way line at the end of the slip. So the lights correctly showed an ahead arrow, since by the time you reached them you'd passed the left turn. Then the stop line was repainted further back, and an extra signal added, so the left turn is controlled - apparently so a pedestrian crossing could be added. But you've now got three sets of signals for the same stop line - the old primary has become a secondary, and the far side signal is another secondary (tertiary?). Really the secondaries should show the same as the primary, which should be left and ahead arrows. But I can see that putting a left arrow on the far side mast arm could be confusing, as that's way past the left turn. Also the right turn doesn't seem to have a proper primary signal - there are three signals which are arguably now all secondaries as they're nowhere near the stop line!
Really it should have been redesigned properly - with the stop line so far back, the far side mast arm is too far away and should be removed. The primary for the right turn really should go on an island - though I can see that there might not be room. And there's no way that the new signal should be showing a green ball. But of course that would have cost more money.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

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These lights on the A347 Ensbury Park Gyratory in Bournemouth are annoying.

They are belligerently set to what must be timed phases, unlike the nearby other sets of lights, which at least off-peak change to demand. It is easy to be sat here at night on red while nothing comes past the other way. And they change to give you green just as someone does approach from the other road, just so he can suffer the same inconvenience!

But apart from that, when you are first in the queue in the right-hand lane (more or less as the Google car is in this image), the right-hand head is difficult to see because of the door bar, the left-hand almost invisible, and the far left one directly behind the wing mirror.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

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Wasn't sure to put this in the botched road signs topic or here. Here we have a right turn which was originally just for buses. However, at some point, the signs were changed to allow cyclists and taxis. This is great until you realise (like I did) that the lights haven't been modified to detect cyclists so it's basically a trap. The exception signs on the signals weren't changed either so technically, even if you could, you aren't allowed to turn right there as a cyclist.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

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AlexBr967 wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 17:16 Wasn't sure to put this in the botched road signs topic or here. Here we have a right turn which was originally just for buses. However, at some point, the signs were changed to allow cyclists and taxis. This is great until you realise (like I did) that the lights haven't been modified to detect cyclists so it's basically a trap. The exception signs on the signals weren't changed either so technically, even if you could, you aren't allowed to turn right there as a cyclist.
The signage for the whole thing is a mess - there's a "turn left ahead" sign with no exemption plate below it (also leaning at a 45 degree angle from being hit), a give way sign positioned before the bus gate and the no right turn on the signals is redundant anyway. Usually unless they intend to camera enforce such setups, they don't bother getting it right I've found.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by SteelCamel »

MotorwayGuy wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 19:05
AlexBr967 wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 17:16 Wasn't sure to put this in the botched road signs topic or here. Here we have a right turn which was originally just for buses. However, at some point, the signs were changed to allow cyclists and taxis. This is great until you realise (like I did) that the lights haven't been modified to detect cyclists so it's basically a trap. The exception signs on the signals weren't changed either so technically, even if you could, you aren't allowed to turn right there as a cyclist.
The signage for the whole thing is a mess - there's a "turn left ahead" sign with no exemption plate below it (also leaning at a 45 degree angle from being hit), a give way sign positioned before the bus gate and the no right turn on the signals is redundant anyway. Usually unless they intend to camera enforce such setups, they don't bother getting it right I've found.
If you want to read the signs literally, it seems that cyclists and taxis entering the bus lane must turn left at the end - there's a no right turn except buses, so they can't turn right, but there's no restriction on turning left!

I also note that someone's gone to the trouble to paint out "only" from the "buses only" marking, but then not bothered to paint in "taxis and cycles" instead.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by AlexBr967 »

I just noticed that the 40 mph speed limit signs are positioned so it seems the higher limit only applies to the left turn.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by ReissOmari »

Take a look at this whole junction for a botch, the amount of mix and match traffic signals always amazes me when I drive past, surely at that point the whole junction just needs replacing. If you move around the junction on GSV, every pedestrian crossing on each of the exits is different.
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traffic-light-man
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by traffic-light-man »

ReissOmari wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 23:07 Take a look at this whole junction for a botch, the amount of mix and match traffic signals always amazes me when I drive past, surely at that point the whole junction just needs replacing. If you move around the junction on GSV, every pedestrian crossing on each of the exits is different.
I spy some rare history...


Examples like these are an unfortunate result of casual replacements being completely different to the originals, which is further emphasised by post-Mellor signal models being more distinguishable from each other, but this is of course now largely unavoidable. There's a site that springs to mind which, until recently, was still all-Mellor. The fact it had a good mix of GEC, Plessey, Page and Siemens branded Mellors was masked by the fact the Mellors are uniform by design (minor details notwithstanding) and so the casual replacements were difficult to spot to the casual observer.

I'm a fan of signals generally appearing uniform across the board, as boring as that might seem, so it's been nice to see Dynniq drop the traditional Elite backing boards in favour of a border-only design more akin to the other manufacturer's offerings. We're at a point where the outlier is Telent with the 4G which has more resemblance to the Mellor than anything from any of the other manufacturers in the UK market.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by L.J.D »

These are a botched up mess. Also those signal heads are really rare in the UK you don't see many at all I wonder who made them ? Must of been short lived.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

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L.J.D wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 08:22 These are a botched up mess. Also those signal heads are really rare in the UK you don't see many at all I wonder who made them ? Must of been short lived.
That is a joke, it looks like originally there was two pedestrian crossings and the junction was uncontrolled, but at some point the signals have been added to allow buses to turn right from the side road.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by traffic-light-man »

L.J.D wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 08:22Also those signal heads are really rare in the UK you don't see many at all I wonder who made them ? Must of been short lived.
They're Monitron Ultras but with the original style backing boards.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by OliverH »

for some reason, they replaced these signals but it seems that there is no arrow for turning left. looks like you can't turn left then.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by Craig91 »

OliverH wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 22:44 for some reason, they replaced these signals but it seems that there is no arrow for turning left. looks like you can't turn left then.
If you move forward it’s clear someone does though.

What are the legalities of that? There’s no “no entry” or “no left turn” sign.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by MotorwayGuy »

There was a similar situation here that I posted before. The arrows were replaced with a green ball and now the whole junction has been changed, I'm not aware of what the new layout is like.

The green arrow means you can proceed in the given direction, not that you must. The thing is given absence of any other signage, there is no indication until the light turns green. It used to be common for signals to have a blue arrow aspect, which in this example presumably means you can only turn right at this junction.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by traffic-light-man »

With regards to substitute arrows, TSRGD states that "where the signal is an arrow, vehicles may only proceed in the direction indicated by the arrow", which removes the need for reinforcement by a regulatory sign. I believe it cannot be worded as must because any green signal doesn't mean you must drive. By virtue of that, a driver is committing an offence if they do drive across the stop line and travel in any direction other than that indicated by an arrow, though I can't imagine the two examples above would see any enforcement as they're quite clearly a botch. Of course the diagram 606 in the last link above is also a botch.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by AlexBr967 »

Botched replacement. 2017 the crossing has a bicycle with a modern-looking PBU. 2020 it's replaced with an older looking PBU with no bicycle despite there still being a cycle path there.
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Re: Botched Traffic Signals

Post by AlexBr967 »

I believe this to be a botch. The cycle path on the left has a traffic light to allow cyclists a protected right turn. Do you see the problem? It's on the same phase as the right turn from the main road. Surely conflicting paths like this shouldn't happen when 2 ways have a green light except for 2 parallel sides? Admittedly though a cyclist can easily see what's going on so it's not necessarily dangerous. There is also no "no u-turn" on the bicycle signal which I think there should be here if they want to phase it like this.
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