Cones
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Re: Cones
For those of us who don't work out on site, the corollary of this is PowerPoint.novaecosse wrote:The unnecessary hides the necessary - this was advice I got from an HSE guidance document on CDM regs.
A good presentation can get across the key message quickly and easily. A bad presentation can lose the key message in a ton of dross.
Education makes the wise slightly wiser, but it makes the fool vastly more dangerous. N. Taleb
We tend to demand impossible standards of proof from our opponents but accept any old rubbish to support our beliefs.
The human paradox that is common sense
The Backfire Effect
We tend to demand impossible standards of proof from our opponents but accept any old rubbish to support our beliefs.
The human paradox that is common sense
The Backfire Effect
- michael769
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Re: Cones
I think there is a certain element of people wanting to justify their fees. Consultancies seem to love producing reams of irrelevant nonsensical paperwork sometimes. Problem is some people like to justify to themselves the huge some of money that have just wasted by assuming that said consultant knows more than they do. mostly they dont!novaecosse wrote: One drawing I laughed at was by a large consultancy for a roadwork site, the designers risk assessment listed "live traffic" as a site specific hazard - who'd guessed you'd get live traffic on a road!
The other driver is simply ignorance. Too many people involved in H&S simply lack even the most basic understanding of civil liability law, the Health and Safety at Work Act and related regs. Without that understanding they tend to react to the newspaper headlines of people suffocating in underground chambers and the bosses going to jail, by assuming they need to avoid every imaginable risk. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding the concept of personal and joint responsibility for risk athat is enshrined in law. The result of all this is a combination of bizarre knee jerk rules and doing what they have seen done elsewhere (construction sites with cranes need hard hats, picking up litter does not!)
Some of you will know I bang on about signs "crying wolf", but silly pointless rules also cry wolf in the same way - and like forgotten men at work signs they reduce safety for us all.The unnecessary hides the necessary - this was advice I got from an HSE guidance document on CDM regs.
The HSE has a very good poster for this sort of danger:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/dec07.pdf
which has mysteriously appeared in a number of past workplaces where H&S notices were spreading unchecked. I wonder how it got there?
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Re: Cones
I once went to a meeting with a large consultancy at their offices in Bothwell St. At reception, I made the mistake of answering "No" to the receptionist's question of whether I had seen the Health and Safety video.novaecosse wrote:One drawing I laughed at was by a large consultancy for a roadwork site, the designers risk assessment listed "live traffic" as a site specific hazard - who'd guessed you'd get live traffic on a road!
I had to endure 10 (might have been less, but time moved very slowly) minutes of the most tedious lecture on how to safely be in their office ...
AAARGH
Education makes the wise slightly wiser, but it makes the fool vastly more dangerous. N. Taleb
We tend to demand impossible standards of proof from our opponents but accept any old rubbish to support our beliefs.
The human paradox that is common sense
The Backfire Effect
We tend to demand impossible standards of proof from our opponents but accept any old rubbish to support our beliefs.
The human paradox that is common sense
The Backfire Effect
- michael769
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Re: Cones
Please tell me they didn't get the contract. Please.....cb a1 wrote: I had to endure 10 (might have been less, but time moved very slowly) minutes of the most tedious lecture on how to safely be in their office ...
AAARGH
Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open
Thomas Robert Dewar(1864-1930)
Take the pledge
Thomas Robert Dewar(1864-1930)
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Re: Cones
Indeed, I've specifically added two quotes from the CDM regs at the bottom of the form, so that anyone who does it wrong definitely deserves a slap (properly risk assessed of course)novaecosse wrote:The unnecessary hides the necessary - this was advice I got from an HSE guidance document on CDM regs.
Quotes follow:
4 The effort devoted to planning and managing health and safety should be in proportion to the risks and complexity associated with the project. When deciding what you need to do to comply with these Regulations, your focus should always be on action necessary to reduce and manage risks. Any paperwork produced should help with communication and risk management. Paperwork which adds little to the management of risk is a waste of effort, and can be a dangerous distraction from the real business of risk reduction and management.
145 Too much paperwork is as bad as too little, because the useless hides the necessary. Large volumes of paperwork listing generic hazards and risks, most of which are well known to contractors and others who use the design are positively harmful, and suggest a lack of competence on the part of the designer.
lose: (v): to suffer the deprivation of - to lose one's job; to lose one's life.
loose: (a): free or released from fastening or attachment - a loose end.
loose: (a): free or released from fastening or attachment - a loose end.
- novaecosse
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Re: Cones
Thats the very chap!Dougman wrote:145 Too much paperwork is as bad as too little, because the useless hides the necessary. Large volumes of paperwork listing generic hazards and risks, most of which are well known to contractors and others who use the design are positively harmful, and suggest a lack of competence on the part of the designer.
I particularly liked the last line where it suggests a lack of competence on the part of the designer
Re: Cones
Indeed, I'll be sure to make that point when I inevitably have to give the training on the new form.novaecosse wrote:Thats the very chap!Dougman wrote:145 Too much paperwork is as bad as too little, because the useless hides the necessary. Large volumes of paperwork listing generic hazards and risks, most of which are well known to contractors and others who use the design are positively harmful, and suggest a lack of competence on the part of the designer.
I particularly liked the last line where it suggests a lack of competence on the part of the designer
lose: (v): to suffer the deprivation of - to lose one's job; to lose one's life.
loose: (a): free or released from fastening or attachment - a loose end.
loose: (a): free or released from fastening or attachment - a loose end.
Re: Cones
This is reminding me of H&S training a few years ago that seemed to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to teach people the difference between 'risk' and 'hazard'. Sometimes the lecturers couldn't help!
I once was a maintenance engineer at a hotel. The H&S twits arrived one day to do their risk assessment of my workplace, including the boiler room. It went something like this (I kid you not) -
Hazard - leaking gas
Risk - explosion
Likely consequence - serious injury or death
As a result the boiler room was made out of bounds - until a week or so later one of the boilers failed and the rooms were cold!
David
I once was a maintenance engineer at a hotel. The H&S twits arrived one day to do their risk assessment of my workplace, including the boiler room. It went something like this (I kid you not) -
Hazard - leaking gas
Risk - explosion
Likely consequence - serious injury or death
As a result the boiler room was made out of bounds - until a week or so later one of the boilers failed and the rooms were cold!
David
- michael769
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Re: Cones
Not to mention exposure to hazard.Lockwood wrote:There's something missing from that risk assessment: Likelihood of occurence.
Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open
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Re: Cones
I'm not an expert in these things (thankfully!) but surely you can't list leaking gas as a hazard unless there's actually a rupture for it to leak from? Otherwise why didn't they identify leaking water pipes as a hazard as well?
Re: Cones
Not an expert either but just the presence of gas is a hazard but one that can be controlled by requiring the installation to be done by a competent installer to some recognised standard and inspected at some specified interval. Then a gas detector in case of leaks and perhaps ventilation if in a confined space.JamesA44 wrote:I'm not an expert in these things (thankfully!) but surely you can't list leaking gas as a hazard unless there's actually a rupture for it to leak from? Otherwise why didn't they identify leaking water pipes as a hazard as well?
Or you could use the same principle that requires someone on their own to wear full PPE in the middle of a field whilst using a pen and paper and have people wear a gas mask with its own air supply at all times.
JMB
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Fort William
http://www.mbriscoe.me.uk
"Give me the third best technology. The second best won't be ready in time. The best will never be ready." Robert Watson-Watt
Re: Cones
Lockwood wrote:There's something missing from that risk assessment: Likelihood of occurence.
Exactly! And when I raised the subject of likelihood of occurrence the reply was something like "but you can't predict a gas escape, so it's always a significant hazard"! Madness.
David
- michael769
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Re: Cones
Sounds like a fundamental lack of understanding of probability. You cannot predict rain either, but I still know it is helluva lot more likely than a gas escape in my kitchen.drm567 wrote:
Exactly! And when I raised the subject of likelihood of occurrence the reply was something like "but you can't predict a gas escape, so it's always a significant hazard"! Madness.
Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open
Thomas Robert Dewar(1864-1930)
Take the pledge
Thomas Robert Dewar(1864-1930)
Take the pledge
Re: Cones
novaecosse wrote:
One drawing I laughed at was by a large consultancy for a roadwork site, the designers risk assessment listed "live traffic" as a site specific hazard - who'd guessed you'd get live traffic on a road!
Dropping my kids off at local station ,I saw something similar "Danger ,Trains run through this station" . Who's expect that . A station with trains passing through .
A Network rail ruling a few years ago said no short sleeves and no shorts .( Explained as possible cancer risk) . Next move was to insist on Hi vis trousers. No thought of heat exhaustion in the summer though.Well not till it happens.Local council Chief Executive read bin men the riot act for wearing shorts at the height of one of the hottest summers in this part of the world. This was in case they got something contaminated on their legs. Surely sanity would say that no clothing means nothing soaked in contaminant to cut away, and a first response of flush with water would be more viable. Again heat exhaustion ,when it happens .
I agree with Dougman on the excess need for all safety gear. Good few years ago our firm was having problems, with no work for a lot of us.Volunteers were required to man the gates at one site ,and this would save the firm cost of security firm. We volunteered .
One day ,the employing firm's safety engineers made a safety tour. I'd assessed the risk on the gate, and decided that just a Hi Viz jacket would suffice .No risk on the ground conditions needing ankle support, or safety boots, and I had my hard hat close by ,if anything with a risk came in . Not sufficient they said. Boots/Hard hat at all times. This was during day, when gates were propped open .But that day the wind was very strong. They decided to confer right in the middle of two 5m metal heavy gates, when the wind caught one .I'd been watching, and as it moved ,shouted a warning . Never seen any one move so fast . Then it was my turn to "educate " them on site safety . My supervisor turned up ,as he'd been summoned by them, and proceed to lay into them , for turning my safe site into a near miss site . Safety engineers- wise to all non apparent dangers, blind to the real ones
One drawing I laughed at was by a large consultancy for a roadwork site, the designers risk assessment listed "live traffic" as a site specific hazard - who'd guessed you'd get live traffic on a road!
Dropping my kids off at local station ,I saw something similar "Danger ,Trains run through this station" . Who's expect that . A station with trains passing through .
A Network rail ruling a few years ago said no short sleeves and no shorts .( Explained as possible cancer risk) . Next move was to insist on Hi vis trousers. No thought of heat exhaustion in the summer though.Well not till it happens.Local council Chief Executive read bin men the riot act for wearing shorts at the height of one of the hottest summers in this part of the world. This was in case they got something contaminated on their legs. Surely sanity would say that no clothing means nothing soaked in contaminant to cut away, and a first response of flush with water would be more viable. Again heat exhaustion ,when it happens .
I agree with Dougman on the excess need for all safety gear. Good few years ago our firm was having problems, with no work for a lot of us.Volunteers were required to man the gates at one site ,and this would save the firm cost of security firm. We volunteered .
One day ,the employing firm's safety engineers made a safety tour. I'd assessed the risk on the gate, and decided that just a Hi Viz jacket would suffice .No risk on the ground conditions needing ankle support, or safety boots, and I had my hard hat close by ,if anything with a risk came in . Not sufficient they said. Boots/Hard hat at all times. This was during day, when gates were propped open .But that day the wind was very strong. They decided to confer right in the middle of two 5m metal heavy gates, when the wind caught one .I'd been watching, and as it moved ,shouted a warning . Never seen any one move so fast . Then it was my turn to "educate " them on site safety . My supervisor turned up ,as he'd been summoned by them, and proceed to lay into them , for turning my safe site into a near miss site . Safety engineers- wise to all non apparent dangers, blind to the real ones
Re: Cones
I've had a (minor) gas leak in the kitchen but it has never* rained in there directlymichael769 wrote:Sounds like a fundamental lack of understanding of probability. You cannot predict rain either, but I still know it is helluva lot more likely than a gas escape in my kitchen.drm567 wrote:
Exactly! And when I raised the subject of likelihood of occurrence the reply was something like "but you can't predict a gas escape, so it's always a significant hazard"! Madness.
Simon
*though rainwater did get in there through the ceiling when the house was being extended and the drip** of a builder decided that the polythene sheeting protecting a window opening upstairs would be better hanging with the bottom of it in the house rather than outside, thus directing torrential rain into the ceiling void.
**I might have used slightly stronger language than drip at the time....
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Re: Cones
I have to confess to having quoted 'live traffic' on a risk assessment - this was back in the day when we were instructed to put everything we could think of onto these forms.novaecosse wrote:I'm still working on getting our lot to think site specific - particular the designers risk assessment - they list generic hazards a competent contractor should be able to cope with.
One drawing I laughed at was by a large consultancy for a roadwork site, the designers risk assessment listed "live traffic" as a site specific hazard - who'd guessed you'd get live traffic on a road!
More recently, I have included unpredictable live traffic as a site specific hazard - as part of an explanation of how the Blackwall Tunnel tidal flow used to work, coupled with the fact that drivers would reasonably frequently end up in the wrong lane in the tidal flow, and therefore might not approach the works in quite the place you'd expect.
I recently went to the offices of a certain Highways Agency MAC contractor (best to remain nameless). I have never seen so many H&S notices littered around the public areas of the building (reception and main strairwell / lift), all suggesting that I should be careful to remain healthy. One of the notices warned that the lift floor didn't quite line up with the adjoining landing. This might have been useful to know as it was an unexpected hazard, but was lost in the midst of the keep left on the stairs notices, the hand cleansing gel dispensers, the avoic accident notices etc.The unnecessary hides the necessary - this was advice I got from an HSE guidance document on CDM regs.
Treat your staff like adults - they might then behave like adults and be more observent.
Cheers,
Simon
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- michael769
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Re: Cones
Next time you are there tell them they have Missed the most important H+S sign of all!M4Simon wrote: I have never seen so many H&S notices littered around the public areas of the building (reception and main strairwell / lift), all suggesting that I should be careful to remain healthy. One of the notices warned that the lift floor didn't quite line up with the adjoining landing.
Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open
Thomas Robert Dewar(1864-1930)
Take the pledge
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Take the pledge
Re: Cones
I was working on a pub refit once putting some wiring in for the speaker system and it was hard hat & steel toe cap boots before even being allowed on site. One of the other electricians over balanced in his boots (was used to kneeling in flexible trainers) and his hard had fell off, landing peak first on the bridge of the nose of the chap standing underneath the floor joists. Oddly enough no one had risk assessed that situation.