Why are streetlights being painted black in so many boroughs

[Gareth]

I was just referring to pre-Sefton MBC, when it was in Lancashire County Council's area.

Huh? Like I said already, Southport was never under Lancashire County Council. It was a 'county borough', meaning that it was essentially a county in its own right, having powers comparable to county councils ie police, utlitities etc. Like all county boroughs, it was still considered a part of the surrounding shire county for ceremonial purposes and to make maps of the UK look neater. Liverpool, also, was never under Lancashire County Council, neither was Bootle.

[Gareth]

Southport never had 'Lancashire days'. It was a county borough from the day modern local government was brought in, as was Liverpool, Bootle, St Helens, Manchester etc.

Wasn't there a good level of cooperation between the County Boroughs and Lancashire County Council? I seem to remember that Lancashire had a reputation for innovation and when Bolton got illuminated Zebra crossing poles being told that Lancashire had been the first to use them, implying that other authorities in the area picked up the idea from them. I wonder if there could have been common standards in the whole of the county even in the County Boroughs?

There may well have been coöperation, but this will have been non-statutory. Indeed, Liverpool, Bootle, Birkenhead & Wallasey ('Merseyside' being a collective term for these boroughs long before the much larger county of the same name was created) coöperated with each other lot more than with either Lancashire or Cheshire county councils.

[traffic-light-man]

I was just referring to pre-Sefton MBC, when it was in Lancashire County Council's area.

Huh? Like I said already, Southport was never under Lancashire County Council. It was a 'county borough', meaning that it was essentially a county in its own right, having powers comparable to county councils ie police, utlitities etc. Like all county boroughs, it was still considered a part of the surrounding shire county for ceremonial purposes and to make maps of the UK look neater. Liverpool, also, was never under Lancashire County Council, neither was Bootle.

Yes, but it wasn't Merseyside. Nor was it under Merseyside County Council or Sefton MBC.

[boing_uk]

What about traffic lights? Are they classed as 'signs' in this case?

A traffic signal is a sign for the purposes of TSRGD and is covered by Direction 46.

(6) Without prejudice to paragraph (8) and subject to the exceptions in paragraph (7), where light signals prescribed by any of the regulations specified in paragraph (1) or shown in a diagram in Part I of Schedule 10 or in Schedule 11 are mounted on a post specially provided for the purpose, that part of the post which extends above ground level shall be either—

(a)coloured grey, black, brown, dark green or dark blue; or

(b)in a non-reflective metallic finish.

(7) Paragraph (6) is subject to the following exceptions—

(a)the post may be marked with a yellow or white band not less than 140 nor more than 160 millimetres deep, the lower edge of the band being not less than 1500 nor more than 1700 millimetres above ground level; and

(b)where the light signals prescribed by regulation 33(1) or (2) are installed temporarily, the containers in which the posts are placed may be coloured with alternate red and white horizontal stripes.

[Gareth]

Yes, but it wasn't Merseyside. Nor was it under Merseyside County Council or Sefton MBC.

Correction by me: yes there were 'Lancashire Days' for Southport in terms of administration. These were between 1889 (when modern local government commenced) and 1915, when it got independence. Still, I'm sure there's almost no surviving streetfurniture that was installed by Lancs County Council.

[Gareth]

(6) Without prejudice to paragraph (8) and subject to the exceptions in paragraph (7), where light signals prescribed by any of the regulations specified in paragraph (1) or shown in a diagram in Part I of Schedule 10 or in Schedule 11 are mounted on a post specially provided for the purpose, that part of the post which extends above ground level shall be either—

(a)coloured grey, black, brown, dark green or dark blue; or

(b)in a non-reflective metallic finish.

(7) Paragraph (6) is subject to the following exceptions—

(a)the post may be marked with a yellow or white band not less than 140 nor more than 160 millimetres deep, the lower edge of the band being not less than 1500 nor more than 1700 millimetres above ground level; and

(b)where the light signals prescribed by regulation 33(1) or (2) are installed temporarily, the containers in which the posts are placed may be coloured with alternate red and white horizontal stripes.

Thanks for that, Boing.

A few things I'd like to see if you know about...

Why those colours? Why's dark red not acceptable but dark blue is, for example? How long has this been a rule? Mellor lights were nearly always grey in Liverpool & most parts of the UK (but black in London for some reason). It's only been in the last decade or so I've seen a bit of variation throughout the country and still, the grey is by far the most popular.

What's the idea of the optional white band? Is it for improved visibility? Isn't that why we used to have stripey poles, which was discontinued and still not approved?

Speaking of the stripey scheme, are belisha beacones considered signs, as these are allowed to be stripey (not sure if it's mandatory or not) and I'm assuming traffic signals & road signs cannot be, despite some existing examples.

Has there always been no distinction between signal poles and sign poles? I'm pretty sure after the big change in 1965 which turned traffic signal poles grey, new traffic lights remained stripey up until the pelican came out in 1969 (the Mellor supposedly being planned to come out at the same time but ended up being delayed for a year).

Can't say I've ever seen a red & white striped pole scheme for traffic lights in barrels. The barrels themselves, yes. I can see how most authorities would not be bothered painting formerly permanent signals put in barrels, especially as they're usually serving out their last days before retirement whilst their replacements are being installed and even if they aren't, it means repainting them once they've been put back into place.

[traffic-light-man]

Yes, but it wasn't Merseyside. Nor was it under Merseyside County Council or Sefton MBC.

Correction by me: yes there were 'Lancashire Days' for Southport in terms of administration. These were between 1889 (when modern local government commenced) and 1915, when it got independence. Still, I'm sure there's almost no surviving streetfurniture that was installed by Lancs County Council.

Maybe a better way to word it on my part was pre-Sefton days - I was simply referring to the fact it was known to be in the Lancashire not Merseyside area (which I suppose it still is by those who live there, with the PR post code and what have you).

[Gareth]

That suggests that a Merseyside area did exist but Southport was not a part of it. That's partially true, as Merseyside was an informal term for Liverpool, Bootle, Birkenhead & Wallasey county boroughs, however, lot of the postcode snobs seem to forget that Liverpool was a part of Lancashire too, even if it wasn't in an administrative sense.

[traffic-light-man]

That suggests that a Merseyside area did exist but Southport was not a part of it.

Does it?

Pre-1974 - Lancashire area
Post-1974 - Merseyside area

Despite all of this (that simply isn't relevant really), if Sefton were to paint street lighting columns two-tone, it would probably be blue and cream - which they haven't in Southport. This suggests a throw-back to pre-Sefton MBC days.

[poshbakerloo]

I like black street lights. Sheffield has a lot now and has been replacing a lot of the older grey lights, but for some reason not the concrete ones...

Black looks a lot more smart and in general more classy, even if the design of the light is boring...

[Halstead]

That's on the TfL street network, though - borough roads do now tend to be black. I have to say I've always disliked Croydon's silver columns and won't mourn their passing.

Bromley still uses a shade of leafy green, which is quite unobtrusive.

I prefer to use the road name plates than the lampposts to distinguish which borough I'm inside. Coincidentally the road names in Bromley are green (older signs are white), Lewisham is predominantly blue with black wooden possts and Croydon is mainly black bold on white.

The Richmond area mainly uses black as their roadsigns and as mentioned also applies for streetlights and local walks which also use black signage.

I also agree on your last sentence, although I still recall concrete versions of the streetlights were more common before I moved to the area.

[dragonv480]

Can't say I've ever seen a red & white striped pole scheme for traffic lights in barrels. The barrels themselves, yes. I can see how most authorities would not be bothered painting formerly permanent signals put in barrels, especially as they're usually serving out their last days before retirement whilst their replacements are being installed and even if they aren't, it means repainting them once they've been put back into place.

The directive, as posted, states that the CONTAINER in which the pole is places (i.e. the barrel or concrete block), may be red/white stripes. It does not say the poles in the containers can be stripy (which they can't).

This is precisely what happens in practice; original coloured pole, contained in a red/white striped barrel or concrete block.

[A303Paul]

I prefer to use the road name plates than the lampposts to distinguish which borough I'm inside. Coincidentally the road names in Bromley are green (older signs are white), Lewisham is predominantly blue with black wooden possts and Croydon is mainly black bold on white.

In berlin in the early '90s the type of lamp post was the best way to know which side of the wall you were as the east only had one or two designs which were quite ubiquitous.

[Halstead]

I prefer to use the road name plates than the lampposts to distinguish which borough I'm inside. Coincidentally the road names in Bromley are green (older signs are white), Lewisham is predominantly blue with black wooden possts and Croydon is mainly black bold on white.

In berlin in the early '90s the type of lamp post was the best way to know which side of the wall you were as the east only had one or two designs which were quite ubiquitous.

A bit like the Amplemannchen then?

[Chris5156]

While this thread has bumped up to the top again, I had cause to travel down Whitehorse Road in Croydon yesterday and, since I'd last been that way, the council had replaced all its streetlights. The difference was incredible - a fairly tatty suburban street suddenly looked smart and tidy.

The end of Croydon's bizarre fetish for tacky silver paint can't come soon enough!

[stefan]

Lancashire county council used to paint each street light a different colour
Preston-Blue bases with cream above
East Lancs- Red bases with a grey upper
Chorley-Pale green
Lancaster Black
South Ribble A grey finish

[the cheesecake man]

I like black street lights. Sheffield has a lot now and has been replacing a lot of the older grey lights, but for some reason not the concrete ones...

Black looks a lot more smart and in general more classy, even if the design of the light is boring...

Yes, all have been replaced with LED ones which are black.

The modern sodium ones were grey.

A few were concrete and these were brown.

The older more traditional ones were green.

I've never really thought about why these colours were chosen.

[AndyB]

In NI, there are still some green lamp posts if you know where to look.

New lamp posts are usually galvanised grey, matt grey paint being reserved for when the galvanisation wears out. Black paint is only really used for decorative applications such as public realm schemes and heritage areas, but I'm pretty sure that anything resembling a standard galvanised lighting column painted black and with decorative collars and post top added is exactly that.