Hidden speed cameras

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jnty
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

Post by jnty »

thatapanydude wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 17:12
jnty wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 17:10
thatapanydude wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 16:21 TfL 30mph camera's hiding here on the A40 !
Is it really that hidden if there's a big sign on the other side?!
Well not, however its the location of where the specs start and end where the unsuspecting have confusion over.
Is the sign not enough of a clue? Genuine question, I'm unfamiliar with the area.
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

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jnty wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 17:17
thatapanydude wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 17:12
jnty wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 17:10

Is it really that hidden if there's a big sign on the other side?!
Well not, however its the location of where the specs start and end where the unsuspecting have confusion over.
Is the sign not enough of a clue? Genuine question, I'm unfamiliar with the area.
Most TFL cameras on the A40 are overt like this one just at the end of the Westway country bound. So some might not see an overt spec camera and think that its only just a sign!
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

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thatapanydude wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 17:23
jnty wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 17:17
thatapanydude wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 17:12

Well not, however its the location of where the specs start and end where the unsuspecting have confusion over.
Is the sign not enough of a clue? Genuine question, I'm unfamiliar with the area.
Most TFL cameras on the A40 are overt like this one just at the end of the Westway country bound. So some might not see an overt spec camera and think that its only just a sign!
Maybe if it was just a speed camera sign, but I think "average speed camera" invariably means you're either at the start or in the middle of a monitored section.
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

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thatapanydude wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 17:23
jnty wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 17:17
thatapanydude wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 17:12

Well not, however its the location of where the specs start and end where the unsuspecting have confusion over.
Is the sign not enough of a clue? Genuine question, I'm unfamiliar with the area.
Most TFL cameras on the A40 are overt like this one just at the end of the Westway country bound. So some might not see an overt spec camera and think that its only just a sign!
Unless you're speeding, why do you need to know where exactly the average speed cameras are? :scratchchin:
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

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Chris5156 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 21:59 Unless you're speeding, why do you need to know where exactly the average speed cameras are? :scratchchin:
Well...as you can probably infer between the lines I do try and make the most of driving within the 10% + 2 parameter. Knowing exactly the locations of the specs help me inform where I can increase my speed or slow down, to make sure I stay under the parameters for a ticket.
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

Post by the cheesecake man »

Here's one painted green and hidden in a tree.

It doesn't look like it still works but I accept no responsibility for any consequences of assuming that.

When the decision that cameras should be visible was taken the leader of Tameside Council disagreed and he was the longest serving council leader in the country so no one wanted to argue with him.
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

Post by Chris Bertram »

the cheesecake man wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 13:08 Here's one painted green and hidden in a tree.

It doesn't look like it still works but I accept no responsibility for any consequences of assuming that.

When the decision that cameras should be visible was taken the leader of Tameside Council disagreed and he was the longest serving council leader in the country so no one wanted to argue with him.
Carefully positioned to catch drivers as they put their foot down immediately after the Mottram traffic lights, I see. But there are no markings on the road surface, so an assumption that they are OOC is probably a safe one.
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

Post by Conekicker »

the cheesecake man wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 13:08 Here's one painted green and hidden in a tree.

It doesn't look like it still works but I accept no responsibility for any consequences of assuming that.

When the decision that cameras should be visible was taken the leader of Tameside Council disagreed and he was the longest serving council leader in the country so no one wanted to argue with him.
That's not a speed camera. It, along with several others, were erected by the local authority. They have no legal standing. The road belongs to National Highways. They are scare devices, politically inspired by vocal locals, in an attempt to reduce traffic speeds. Regular users of that route will know well that "excessive speed" is a fantasy for much of the day.
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

Post by Bryn666 »

thatapanydude wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 22:32
Chris5156 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 21:59 Unless you're speeding, why do you need to know where exactly the average speed cameras are? :scratchchin:
Well...as you can probably infer between the lines I do try and make the most of driving within the 10% + 2 parameter. Knowing exactly the locations of the specs help me inform where I can increase my speed or slow down, to make sure I stay under the parameters for a ticket.
Well you're playing with fire as the 10%+2 parameter is entirely discretionary.
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

Post by Chris Bertram »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 17:16
thatapanydude wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 22:32
Chris5156 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 21:59 Unless you're speeding, why do you need to know where exactly the average speed cameras are? :scratchchin:
Well...as you can probably infer between the lines I do try and make the most of driving within the 10% + 2 parameter. Knowing exactly the locations of the specs help me inform where I can increase my speed or slow down, to make sure I stay under the parameters for a ticket.
Well you're playing with fire as the 10%+2 parameter is entirely discretionary.
It is, but is recommended by the NPCC, and when the RAC asked round the police forces, not one that answered deviated from it (some refused to say, but it is highly likely that they use the same standard).
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 17:25
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 17:16
thatapanydude wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 22:32

Well...as you can probably infer between the lines I do try and make the most of driving within the 10% + 2 parameter. Knowing exactly the locations of the specs help me inform where I can increase my speed or slow down, to make sure I stay under the parameters for a ticket.
Well you're playing with fire as the 10%+2 parameter is entirely discretionary.
It is, but is recommended by the NPCC, and when the RAC asked round the police forces, not one that answered deviated from it (some refused to say, but it is highly likely that they use the same standard).
Yes but it won't wash in court if you're done for bang on the threshold or being stopped by a patrol with the "any idea how fast you were going back then, sir" window tap. They will see you were in excess of the speed limit and throw the book at you.

It seems a lot of needless effort to push an envelope, or are drivers allowed to break the law in a "limited and specific way"?
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

Post by Chris Bertram »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 17:37
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 17:25
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 17:16
Well you're playing with fire as the 10%+2 parameter is entirely discretionary.
It is, but is recommended by the NPCC, and when the RAC asked round the police forces, not one that answered deviated from it (some refused to say, but it is highly likely that they use the same standard).
Yes but it won't wash in court if you're done for bang on the threshold or being stopped by a patrol with the "any idea how fast you were going back then, sir" window tap. They will see you were in excess of the speed limit and throw the book at you.

It seems a lot of needless effort to push an envelope, or are drivers allowed to break the law in a "limited and specific way"?
If the NPCC guidelines are there for a purpose, then the answer is yes. Of course we know why the leeway is allowed, it's so that the system isn't brought to a standstill dealing with trivial infractions, which seems reasonable to me. Many other trivial offences are overlooked in everyday life, but somehow exceeding the speed limit attracts massive levels of disapproval out of all proportion to the rest.
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 22:53
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 17:37
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 17:25 It is, but is recommended by the NPCC, and when the RAC asked round the police forces, not one that answered deviated from it (some refused to say, but it is highly likely that they use the same standard).
Yes but it won't wash in court if you're done for bang on the threshold or being stopped by a patrol with the "any idea how fast you were going back then, sir" window tap. They will see you were in excess of the speed limit and throw the book at you.

It seems a lot of needless effort to push an envelope, or are drivers allowed to break the law in a "limited and specific way"?
If the NPCC guidelines are there for a purpose, then the answer is yes. Of course we know why the leeway is allowed, it's so that the system isn't brought to a standstill dealing with trivial infractions, which seems reasonable to me. Many other trivial offences are overlooked in everyday life, but somehow exceeding the speed limit attracts massive levels of disapproval out of all proportion to the rest.
Yes, well, it rather depends what your definition of "trivial" offences is. If you're hit and killed by someone driving at 10% over the speed limit it's hardly trivial.

I don't hear there being any clamour for a 10%+2 tolerance on the drink drive limit, yet millions undoubtedly down two or maybe more pints and drive home without incident at some point in their life just like millions exceed speed limits without incident in their life too. Perhaps we should reclassify drink driving as a trivial offence owing to the fact roughly 17% of road fatalities involve exceeding a posted speed limit but only 13% involved drink driving last year?
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

Post by Chris Bertram »

You'd better take that up with NPCC, Bryn, they've made the call, presumably based on evidence of potential harm that you and I don't have.
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

Post by avtur »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 17:25
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 17:16
thatapanydude wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 22:32

Well...as you can probably infer between the lines I do try and make the most of driving within the 10% + 2 parameter. Knowing exactly the locations of the specs help me inform where I can increase my speed or slow down, to make sure I stay under the parameters for a ticket.
Well you're playing with fire as the 10%+2 parameter is entirely discretionary.
It is, but is recommended by the NPCC, and when the RAC asked round the police forces, not one that answered deviated from it (some refused to say, but it is highly likely that they use the same standard).
The thresholds were set to endure reliable conviction. The likes of Mr loophole are less likely to overturn offences that match or exceed the NPCC guidelines. When you get down to the lower margins of excess speed there are too many variables for guaranteed convection. The comparison with drink driving is (IMHO) incorrect. There is an absolute limit and the enforcement technology can be relied upon to produce indisputable evidence.
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

Post by jnty »

avtur wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 07:38
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 17:25
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 17:16
Well you're playing with fire as the 10%+2 parameter is entirely discretionary.
It is, but is recommended by the NPCC, and when the RAC asked round the police forces, not one that answered deviated from it (some refused to say, but it is highly likely that they use the same standard).
The thresholds were set to endure reliable conviction. The likes of Mr loophole are less likely to overturn offences that match or exceed the NPCC guidelines. When you get down to the lower margins of excess speed there are too many variables for guaranteed convection. The comparison with drink driving is (IMHO) incorrect. There is an absolute limit and the enforcement technology can be relied upon to produce indisputable evidence.
With drink driving they need a blood test on top of the breathalyser and even then it seems quite easy to argue in court that the consequences of your actions will make life difficult for you and so leniency should be shown. It does seem like road traffic law enforcement in this country is often largely for show...
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 23:56
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 22:53
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 17:37

Yes but it won't wash in court if you're done for bang on the threshold or being stopped by a patrol with the "any idea how fast you were going back then, sir" window tap. They will see you were in excess of the speed limit and throw the book at you.

It seems a lot of needless effort to push an envelope, or are drivers allowed to break the law in a "limited and specific way"?
If the NPCC guidelines are there for a purpose, then the answer is yes. Of course we know why the leeway is allowed, it's so that the system isn't brought to a standstill dealing with trivial infractions, which seems reasonable to me. Many other trivial offences are overlooked in everyday life, but somehow exceeding the speed limit attracts massive levels of disapproval out of all proportion to the rest.
Yes, well, it rather depends what your definition of "trivial" offences is. If you're hit and killed by someone driving at 10% over the speed limit it's hardly trivial.

I don't hear there being any clamour for a 10%+2 tolerance on the drink drive limit, yet millions undoubtedly down two or maybe more pints and drive home without incident at some point in their life just like millions exceed speed limits without incident in their life too. Perhaps we should reclassify drink driving as a trivial offence owing to the fact roughly 17% of road fatalities involve exceeding a posted speed limit but only 13% involved drink driving last year?
The Police do apply a tolerance to the drink-drive laws - if one blows under 40 "whatsits" on the intoximeter at the station, no prosecution is made despite the limit being 35 - rather more than 10%.
Last edited by Ruperts Trooper on Wed Apr 06, 2022 08:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

jnty wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 08:03
avtur wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 07:38
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 17:25 It is, but is recommended by the NPCC, and when the RAC asked round the police forces, not one that answered deviated from it (some refused to say, but it is highly likely that they use the same standard).
The thresholds were set to endure reliable conviction. The likes of Mr loophole are less likely to overturn offences that match or exceed the NPCC guidelines. When you get down to the lower margins of excess speed there are too many variables for guaranteed convection. The comparison with drink driving is (IMHO) incorrect. There is an absolute limit and the enforcement technology can be relied upon to produce indisputable evidence.
With drink driving they need a blood test on top of the breathalyser and even then it seems quite easy to argue in court that the consequences of your actions will make life difficult for you and so leniency should be shown. It does seem like road traffic law enforcement in this country is often largely for show...
Blood tests are only used if there's a genuine reason why the Intoximeter at the station can't be used.
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

Post by jnty »

Ruperts Trooper wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 08:41
jnty wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 08:03
avtur wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 07:38

The thresholds were set to endure reliable conviction. The likes of Mr loophole are less likely to overturn offences that match or exceed the NPCC guidelines. When you get down to the lower margins of excess speed there are too many variables for guaranteed convection. The comparison with drink driving is (IMHO) incorrect. There is an absolute limit and the enforcement technology can be relied upon to produce indisputable evidence.
With drink driving they need a blood test on top of the breathalyser and even then it seems quite easy to argue in court that the consequences of your actions will make life difficult for you and so leniency should be shown. It does seem like road traffic law enforcement in this country is often largely for show...
Blood tests are only used if there's a genuine reason why the Intoximeter at the station can't be used.
Ah yes sorry - I got confused about what happens at the station - my point really was that you seemingly can't be successfully prosecuted based only on evidence from the scene (in contrast to speeding!)
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Re: Hidden speed cameras

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Chris5156 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 21:59
thatapanydude wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 17:23
jnty wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 17:17

Is the sign not enough of a clue? Genuine question, I'm unfamiliar with the area.
Most TFL cameras on the A40 are overt like this one just at the end of the Westway country bound. So some might not see an overt spec camera and think that its only just a sign!
Unless you're speeding, why do you need to know where exactly the average speed cameras are? :scratchchin:
That really goes to the heart of what the fundamental point of speed enforcement is.

From the individual motorist's point of view, Chris's response is entirely reasonable - if you know what the limit is, you can remove any likelihood of being caught speeding by, er, not speeding.

But from society's point of view, it really depends on what the point of enforcing the limit is. Is it to deal with drivers who go too fast, after they've gone too fast, or is it to get them not to go too fast in the first place? Every speeding conviction is arguably a failure in the system, in that it is direct evidence that someone drove at a speed deemed to be dangerous or antisocial at the time and place in question. Conversely, speed cameras that result in zero or very few convictions are a success, as they show that people are sticking to the limit there.

In the real world, it's probably a bit of both: people who are caught speeding probably tend to be more careful in the future, so the speeding prosecution isn't purely a "failure" as defined above. But we all know that people do break speed limits regularly, presumably including those who've been fined for speeding before. If speed cameras are sited in locations where it is particularly important that drivers don't go too fast, then it makes sense to advertise their presence. In fact, given that we know that advertising the presence of speed cameras does make a lot of drivers stick to the limit when they otherwise might not, you can argue that a council/SCP/police force that chooses to hide a camera should have to justify that decision if there is an accident involving excessive and illegal speed at that location.
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