New standards for No Waiting cones?

[Lamp&SignCollector]

I don't know if there are any 'Cone Freaks' on here (I am one) but I have noticed the new JSP triangular No waiting cones and Melba Swintex Minisigns are now having a reflective No Waiting symbol applied as opposed to non-reflective stickers like before. I was wondering if anybody knows if the standards have been changed for these cones (now according to Chapter 8 standards maybe)?

[Conekicker]

This taken from Circular Roads 1/16
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 1-2016.pdf

Previously, many traffic signs were required to be directly illuminated at night when placed within a street-lit area, either by
internal or external means. These requirements have been significantly relaxed in TSRGD 2016.

A new overarching regulation 8 introduces a default lighting requirement equivalent to the previous Schedule 17 item 4. The default position requires upright signs to be reflectorised, while allowing direct lighting if so desired. This applies to all traffic signs unless other conditions are specified elsewhere in the Schedules. Therefore, when assessing the applicable regulations and directions for any given sign, if illumination requirements are not specified, the default position applies.


However, Schedule 13, Part 7, Item 10, which applies to this sign says that the sign need not be illuminated. So why someone has made them so is a matter that would need to be taken up with the manufacturer. Perhaps they haven't read the Regulations in sufficient depth?

Sorted?

[Lamp&SignCollector]

This taken from Circular Roads 1/16
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 1-2016.pdf

Previously, many traffic signs were required to be directly illuminated at night when placed within a street-lit area, either by
internal or external means. These requirements have been significantly relaxed in TSRGD 2016.

A new overarching regulation 8 introduces a default lighting requirement equivalent to the previous Schedule 17 item 4. The default position requires upright signs to be reflectorised, while allowing direct lighting if so desired. This applies to all traffic signs unless other conditions are specified elsewhere in the Schedules. Therefore, when assessing the applicable regulations and directions for any given sign, if illumination requirements are not specified, the default position applies.


However, Schedule 13, Part 7, Item 10, which applies to this sign says that the sign need not be illuminated. So why someone has made them so is a matter that would need to be taken up with the manufacturer. Perhaps they haven't read the Regulations in sufficient depth?

Sorted?

Thank you for this, cones have a different standard and are not really classed as road signs, No Waiting cones (Or at least the symbol) have never been reflective (The white background on some conical cones were reflective but never the symbol) The No waiting cones have been used on the road since the 1970's, originally being made of wood but then later plastic which could have had a reflective sticker, sleeve or paintwork applied but never did, also they weren't illuminated. I have some very old No Waiting cones and newer ones, none were reflective but the new ones from this year seem to be.

[Bomag]

This taken from Circular Roads 1/16
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 1-2016.pdf

Previously, many traffic signs were required to be directly illuminated at night when placed within a street-lit area, either by
internal or external means. These requirements have been significantly relaxed in TSRGD 2016.

A new overarching regulation 8 introduces a default lighting requirement equivalent to the previous Schedule 17 item 4. The default position requires upright signs to be reflectorised, while allowing direct lighting if so desired. This applies to all traffic signs unless other conditions are specified elsewhere in the Schedules. Therefore, when assessing the applicable regulations and directions for any given sign, if illumination requirements are not specified, the default position applies.


However, Schedule 13, Part 7, Item 10, which applies to this sign says that the sign need not be illuminated. So why someone has made them so is a matter that would need to be taken up with the manufacturer. Perhaps they haven't read the Regulations in sufficient depth?

Sorted?

Thank you for this, cones have a different standard and are not really classed as road signs, No Waiting cones (Or at least the symbol) have never been reflective (The white background on some conical cones were reflective but never the symbol) The No waiting cones have been used on the road since the 1970's, originally being made of wood but then later plastic which could have had a reflective sticker, sleeve or paintwork applied but never did, also they weren't illuminated. I have some very old No Waiting cones and newer ones, none were reflective but the new ones from this year seem to be.

Cones and no waiting signs are in the Regs and are therefore signs. The performance of the retroreflective elements (if applicable) is given in the relevant standard BS EN 13422 etc.

[Bryn666]

I've seen these unlawful things with reflectorised bands quite a lot recently... good job given the colour scheme in use.

Who got the innovation bonus from the Society of Things We Didn't Need this time?

[Conekicker]

Cones and no waiting signs are in the Regs and are therefore signs. The performance of the retroreflective elements (if applicable) is given in the relevant standard BS EN 13422 etc.

Would it be cynical of me to say that, as these things don't need to be illuminated, the manufacturers could slap any cheap and not at all nasty, goodness me no, imported cough "reflective" cough sheeting on and not therefore have to worry about standards?

[Lamp&SignCollector]

I've seen these unlawful things with reflectorised bands quite a lot recently... good job given the colour scheme in use.

Who got the innovation bonus from the Society of Things We Didn't Need this time?

I am actually getting one of these off a local church!
Funny that you mention these, they have been around for years and years but are very unpopular.
They were made as people kept moving No Waiting cones outside churches so these were made to make people be more considerate and mostly it has worked.
These never used to have reflective sleeves so maybe standards have changed requiring all cones to be reflective.

[Lamp&SignCollector]

Cones and no waiting signs are in the Regs and are therefore signs. The performance of the retroreflective elements (if applicable) is given in the relevant standard BS EN 13422 etc.

Would it be cynical of me to say that, as these things don't need to be illuminated, the manufacturers could slap any cheap and not at all nasty, goodness me no, imported cough "reflective" cough sheeting on and not therefore have to worry about standards?

All I wanted to know if there are new standards for No Waiting cones as they seem to be reflective now.

I already know the BS 873(Old standard), EN 13422 and BS 8442 standards but these can change all the time.

Yes they do use imported sleeves and stickers, I know the manufacturer of them and they have said it is only recently the reflective stickers have been made for the companies who order them.

Cones are NOT classed as signs, as most cones do not display any symbol and/or text. No waiting cones do display a symbol but ARE STILL cones.
If it were a sign, the cone's symbol would have to be the same dimensions and placed at the same height for it to be classed as a road sign. The symbol on a non-conical no waiting cone is usually 200mm (some are 180mm) whereas standard circular road signs need to be around 600mm, there is a bit of a difference there. On the conical No Waiting cones the symbol is usually smaller as there are 2 symbols on the sleeve, each are around 150mm. If you want me to measure the symbols on No Waiting cones and then measure a standard circular road sign then I will happily do that.

[Conekicker]

Cones are NOT classed as signs, as most cones do not display any symbol and/or text. No waiting cones do display a symbol but ARE STILL cones.
If it were a sign, the cone's symbol would have to be the same dimensions and placed at the same height for it to be classed as a road sign. The symbol on a non-conical no waiting cone is usually 200mm (some are 180mm) whereas standard circular road signs need to be around 600mm, there is a bit of a difference there. On the conical No Waiting cones the symbol is usually smaller as there are 2 symbols on the sleeve, each are around 150mm. If you want me to measure the symbols on No Waiting cones and then measure a standard circular road sign then I will happily do that.

You might like to have a read at this before stating what is and isn't a sign:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016 ... tents/made

Specifically Schedule 13, Part 6, Items 4, 19 and 20, although you'll find yourself referred to other parts of the document.

As for the size tolerance, see Regulation 7(7) at the front of the document.

If you haven't read it before, you may find it an interesting, if somewhat challenging, read. The previous sentence would be entered in the "Understatement of the Decade" competition, if there was such a competition.

The conical No Waiting cones are unlawful, there is nowhere in TSRGD that permits that particular sign to be curved.

This set of documents may also be of interest, although they will shortly (chuckles) be revised:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... gns-manual

No disrespect but Bomag and myself are in the industry and are intimately familiar, (god help us), with what is/is not a traffic sign.

[Lamp&SignCollector]

Cones are NOT classed as signs, as most cones do not display any symbol and/or text. No waiting cones do display a symbol but ARE STILL cones.
If it were a sign, the cone's symbol would have to be the same dimensions and placed at the same height for it to be classed as a road sign. The symbol on a non-conical no waiting cone is usually 200mm (some are 180mm) whereas standard circular road signs need to be around 600mm, there is a bit of a difference there. On the conical No Waiting cones the symbol is usually smaller as there are 2 symbols on the sleeve, each are around 150mm. If you want me to measure the symbols on No Waiting cones and then measure a standard circular road sign then I will happily do that.

You might like to have a read at this before stating what is and isn't a sign:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016 ... tents/made

Specifically Schedule 13, Part 6, Items 4, 19 and 20, although you'll find yourself referred to other parts of the document.

As for the size tolerance, see Regulation 7(7) at the front of the document.

If you haven't read it before, you may find it an interesting, if somewhat challenging, read. The previous sentence would be entered in the "Understatement of the Decade" competition, if there was such a competition.

The conical No Waiting cones are unlawful, there is nowhere in TSRGD that permits that particular sign to be curved.

This set of documents may also be of interest, although they will shortly (chuckles) be revised:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... gns-manual

No disrespect but Bomag and myself are in the industry and are intimately familiar, (god help us), with what is/is not a traffic sign.

I just wanted to know if the standards have changed for God's sake. Not to start a debate on whether cones are classed as road signs. If you think it is whoopie doo good for you I don't care. If you can't help with my initial question (which you haven't) don't bother replying.

[Conekicker]

I just wanted to know if the standards have changed for God's sake. Not to start a debate on whether cones are classed as road signs. If you think it is whoopie doo good for you I don't care. If you can't help with my initial question (which you haven't) don't bother replying.

No, the standards haven't changed.

[Bomag]

Cones are NOT classed as signs, as most cones do not display any symbol and/or text. No waiting cones do display a symbol but ARE STILL cones.
If it were a sign, the cone's symbol would have to be the same dimensions and placed at the same height for it to be classed as a road sign. The symbol on a non-conical no waiting cone is usually 200mm (some are 180mm) whereas standard circular road signs need to be around 600mm, there is a bit of a difference there. On the conical No Waiting cones the symbol is usually smaller as there are 2 symbols on the sleeve, each are around 150mm. If you want me to measure the symbols on No Waiting cones and then measure a standard circular road sign then I will happily do that.

You might like to have a read at this before stating what is and isn't a sign:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016 ... tents/made

Specifically Schedule 13, Part 6, Items 4, 19 and 20, although you'll find yourself referred to other parts of the document.

As for the size tolerance, see Regulation 7(7) at the front of the document.

If you haven't read it before, you may find it an interesting, if somewhat challenging, read. The previous sentence would be entered in the "Understatement of the Decade" competition, if there was such a competition.

The conical No Waiting cones are unlawful, there is nowhere in TSRGD that permits that particular sign to be curved.

This set of documents may also be of interest, although they will shortly (chuckles) be revised:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... gns-manual

No disrespect but Bomag and myself are in the industry and are intimately familiar, (god help us), with what is/is not a traffic sign.

I just wanted to know if the standards have changed for God's sake. Not to start a debate on whether cones are classed as road signs. If you think it is whoopie doo good for you I don't care. If you can't help with my initial question (which you haven't) don't bother replying.

Without trying to flog this further, A Standard is about the product e.g. BS 873, then there is the Regulations (TSRGD 2016) and the guidance Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 8 Part 3 (Feb 2017, PDF only). The reflectorisation requirements have not changed but the guidance has been updated in TSM Chapter 8 Part 3.

[Lamp&SignCollector]

[/quote] Without trying to flog this further, A Standard is about the product e.g. BS 873, then there is the Regulations (TSRGD 2016) and the guidance Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 8 Part 3 (Feb 2017, PDF only). The reflectorisation requirements have not changed but the guidance has been updated in TSM Chapter 8 Part 3.[/quote]
Okay well the new standards for cones are actually EN 13422 not BS 873 which was actually withdrawn in 2004.
All this chapter 8 stuff is garbage I don't need to know it.

Literally all I ask is do No Waiting cones have to be reflective due to the standard being updated or is it just the manufacturer's preference?
The answer I wanted to receive was either" Yes they have, new No Waiting cones need to be reflective" and maybe a little info on it or "No, it is likely to be a manufacturer's decision but it isn't compulsory for all manufacturers to apply reflective symbols on their cones.

[Lamp&SignCollector]

I just wanted to know if the standards have changed for God's sake. Not to start a debate on whether cones are classed as road signs. If you think it is whoopie doo good for you I don't care. If you can't help with my initial question (which you haven't) don't bother replying.

No, the standards haven't changed.

Thank you!

[nowster]

The answer I wanted to receive...

There's more than you here, and you should recognise that thread drift in forums is the default rather than the exception. You've stirred up some interest in what the actual regs are, and that's very good for the group as a whole.

[Conekicker]

The answer I wanted to receive...

There's more than you here, and you should recognise that thread drift in forums is the default rather than the exception. You've stirred up some interest in what the actual regs are, and that's very good for the group as a whole.

Hence my initial answer...

[Lamp&SignCollector]

The answer I wanted to receive...

There's more than you here, and you should recognise that thread drift in forums is the default rather than the exception. You've stirred up some interest in what the actual regs are, and that's very good for the group as a whole.

Yeah that's right bully the new person. How was I supposed to know that going off topic was a good thing? It should be started as another topic really.

[doebag]

Yeah that's right bully the new person. How was I supposed to know that going off topic was a good thing? It should be started as another topic really.

Oh FFS, don't even bother going down that route......................................................

It is more like explaining to the new person in the group/team how the rules in this group work, they may not be how the new arrival expects them to work.

Luckily this forum is not one person's pet, on many other forums where a single person is responsible for it's creation and operation, the answer to your comment would be 'my house, my party, my rules'. Take a deep breath and come back, it's fun here.

[Big L]

The answer I wanted to receive...

There's more than you here, and you should recognise that thread drift in forums is the default rather than the exception. You've stirred up some interest in what the actual regs are, and that's very good for the group as a whole.

Yeah that's right bully the new person. How was I supposed to know that going off topic was a good thing? It should be started as another topic really.

You ask​ 'how am I supposed to know' and criticize the person that tells you, in the space of two sentences. Impressive.

[Steven]

A number of posts on this thread are now arguing about other posters or the way they post rather than the actual subject.

Please remember that the Posting Guidelines can be found here.

Some thread drift it to be expected. If you feel a thread has drifted too far, then report it to the SMT who will make a decision.