Road signs in Ireland

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Berk
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Road signs in Ireland

Post by Berk »

I’ve recently been to Ireland, and had a measure of what road signage out there is like. In some respects it’s very good - but could do with shaping up in others. I will admit my experience is coloured quite heavily from being British, and brought up with our system (which is the ‘gold standard’, to me at least).

Some points I think could do with being looked at.

1: Ainmneacha baile Gaelach (or what I hope is Gaelic place names). It may be the principal official language of the State (I have no argument with that). What I would suggest is that English should appear on the same post, even if it’s lower down. Rather than not at all.

When I see a name like Baile Bhúirne, and have no clue what it refers to, it could refer to anything. It would be more courteous to people who don’t even speak English to write it as Ballyvourney.

Remember - the Gaelic-only policy applies to any town or village in the Gaeltacht, and applies to fingerposts and ADS’s equally.

2: Warning signs. They immediately stand out by being ‘international’. But I would go further and suggest they look outdated, some of the diagrams and drawings look straight out of the 1950s. I feel they should be changed to something closer to the European standard. With a triangle at least.

I should add, I’d be interested to know why the State plumped for the international model in 1956 - rather than switch to something similar to the European standard.

Whilst I’m on the subject, I don’t feel that emergency/temporary signage (e.g. roadworks) is served well by the black on orange. It looks a bit indistinct. Perhaps that could keep the yellow.

3: Minor differences between Irish and UK usage. Things like ‘no overtaking’, that sort of thing. Why not standardise these too?? For consistency’s sake.

Those are the main issues, otherwise it’s a very pleasant drive. :)
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Re: Road signs in Ireland

Post by Bryn666 »

Ireland followed the 1949 specification for many signs as the diamonds were adopted in 1956. I suspect triangles were deemed a little too British at the time.
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Re: Road signs in Ireland

Post by Berk »

Bryn666 wrote:Ireland followed the 1949 specification for many signs as the diamonds were adopted in 1956. I suspect triangles were deemed a little too British at the time.
Interesting. Was there a Vienna Convention before the 1968 one??
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Re: Road signs in Ireland

Post by Bryn666 »

It has its origins in 1949.
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Re: Road signs in Ireland

Post by Nwallace »

Berk wrote: When I see a name like Baile Bhúirne, and have no clue what it refers to, it could refer to anything. It would be more courteous to people who don’t even speak English to write it as Ballyvourney.

That's essentially the same as asking for Köln to be spelt either Koeln or Cologne on signage in Germany.
But if you learn how to pronounce in the language of the Gaeltach when you know you're going there then you would have no problem.

Irish is taught in Irish schools up to a point so the local populace should be ok with it, if the tourists aren't then well that's their problem for not at least learning the pronunciation.

Where the real problem lies is where the mapping or instructions have the English name and the maps have the Irish/Gaelic; this is a problem with those languages as it's considered normal to translate names if they haven't got commonly used Anglicised versions of their Gaelic or Gaelicised Norse names.

Something I've come across when looking for accommodation in Nunton on Benbecual... Baile nan Cailleach on both the OS and the road signs.

When I arrived and signed the register the hostel owner took interest in my rather mangled name!
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Re: Road signs in Ireland

Post by Berk »

Nwallace wrote:
Berk wrote:When I see a name like Baile Bhúirne, and have no clue what it refers to, it could refer to anything. It would be more courteous to people who don’t even speak English to write it as Ballyvourney.
That's essentially the same as asking for Köln to be spelt either Koeln or Cologne on signage in Germany.
But if you learn how to pronounce in the language of the Gaeltach when you know you're going there then you would have no problem.

Irish is taught in Irish schools up to a point so the local populace should be ok with it, if the tourists aren't then well that's their problem for not at least learning the pronunciation.

Where the real problem lies is where the mapping or instructions have the English name and the maps have the Irish/Gaelic; this is a problem with those languages as it's considered normal to translate names if they haven't got commonly used Anglicised versions of their Gaelic or Gaelicised Norse names.
Yes, I’ve (only belatedly) realised that. But it’s also due to (rather late) legislative changes; previously the Gaelic name would’ve moved into historical significance (cf. Saxon place names over here). But recent laws have revived Gaelic place names, and give rise to the situation you describe (the place name does not match the mapping).

I think it also depends on how big the place you are looking for is. For somewhere well known, you might reasonably be able to make the link. For somewhere in the countryside, probably not. In my case, I think the use of italic script made me take longer to read/make the link.
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Re: Road signs in Ireland

Post by bothar »

Yes, I’ve (only belatedly) realised that. But it’s also due to (rather late) legislative changes; previously the Gaelic name would’ve moved into historical significance (cf. Saxon place names over here). But recent laws have revived Gaelic place names, and give rise to the situation you describe (the place name does not match the mapping).
Gaelic only placenames are only used in the Gaeltacht, so the name was not "revived". I suppose the question is why do maps and sat-navs not show the name of the place that appears on the sign.

As for the signage, having made many cross border journeys at night the diamond is much more visable and no backing plates and the like required. When Ireland adopted signage in 1956 there wasn't a good European standard and US signage was ahead of UK designs at that point. I think they did a good job, albeit by mixing influences, and having done a good job there isn't much motivation to make major changes.
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Re: Road signs in Ireland

Post by c2R »

Ireland's directional signage has come on a long way in a relatively short period - even into the 90s, the concept of advance direction signs, even at major road junctions just consisted of signs stating that there was a junction ahead, and fingerposts were order of the day in urban areas, containing a mix of national destinations, local destinations, hotels, post offices, and shops!

I can take or leave new world signage; I prefer the UK system but the signs are fairly easy to understand in Ireland, however, I really don't like the "one way" sign as in the UK standard such signs would essentially mean the opposite! https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.99951 ... 312!8i6656
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Re: Road signs in Ireland

Post by bothar »

c2R wrote:I can take or leave new world signage; I prefer the UK system but the signs are fairly easy to understand in Ireland, however, I really don't like the "one way" sign as in the UK standard such signs would essentially mean the opposite! https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.99951 ... 312!8i6656
This type of sign is a real relic, as it is many years sign since standard blue signs were introduced. You do still see this on private property though.
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Re: Road signs in Ireland

Post by c2R »

bothar wrote:
c2R wrote:I can take or leave new world signage; I prefer the UK system but the signs are fairly easy to understand in Ireland, however, I really don't like the "one way" sign as in the UK standard such signs would essentially mean the opposite! https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.99951 ... 312!8i6656
This type of sign is a real relic, as it is many years sign since standard blue signs were introduced. You do still see this on private property though.
I hadn't realised that - I must admit that I don't use many other one way roads in Ireland, and Dundalk still has a load of these - this one seems a bit newer: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.00007 ... 312!8i6656

..and here's some on a roundabout nearby: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.00002 ... 312!8i6656
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Re: Road signs in Ireland

Post by Berk »

bothar wrote:
c2R wrote:I can take or leave new world signage; I prefer the UK system but the signs are fairly easy to understand in Ireland, however, I really don't like the "one way" sign as in the UK standard such signs would essentially mean the opposite! https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.99951 ... 312!8i6656
Haha, yes. It’s interesting to see that just down the road, that example also has ‘No Entry’ signs!!
This type of sign is a real relic, as it is many years sign since standard blue signs were introduced. You do still see this on private property though.
I saw plenty of these in Cork, so although you’re correct, I don't believe there’s been a wholesale replacement.

Besides, as was discussed here previously, the Irish sign has an additional benefit (well, the prohibition version, at least) -meaning ‘No Straight Ahead’. We could do with a sign like that in this country.
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Re: Road signs in Ireland

Post by Bryn666 »

The original 1949 convention gave the option of a red circle for mandatory instructions and a strikethrough for prohibitions.

Most of Europe went for blue circles and Ireland was left playing catch up.

Sometimes being the first means you have to make all the mistakes.
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Re: Road signs in Ireland

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Bryn666 wrote:The original 1949 convention gave the option of a red circle for mandatory instructions and a strikethrough for prohibitions.

Most of Europe went for blue circles and Ireland was left playing catch up.

Sometimes being the first means you have to make all the mistakes.
I'm not sure I'd call it a mistake - the 1949 convention was very logical and consistent. The later revisions, which most European countries have adopted, are actually very inconsistent.

The 1949 convention used a red circle for all mandatory instructions. If it was a "you must", it had a symbol in a red circle; if it was a "you must not" it had a symbol in a red circle with a diagonal red bar through it.

The later revisions - adopted across Europe, including the UK and lately Ireland - have red circles and blue discs for mandatory instructions. If it's a "you must" it has a symbol in white on a blue disc. If it's a "you must not" it has a symbol in a red circle, and it might have a diagonal red bar through it or it might not, and it might have part of the symbol in red instead of black, or it might not.

You might prefer one system or the other, but it would be hard to argue the present system is more logical, simple or consistent than the 1949 version.
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Re: Road signs in Ireland

Post by booshank »

Chris5156 wrote:
Bryn666 wrote:The original 1949 convention gave the option of a red circle for mandatory instructions and a strikethrough for prohibitions.

Most of Europe went for blue circles and Ireland was left playing catch up.

Sometimes being the first means you have to make all the mistakes.
I'm not sure I'd call it a mistake - the 1949 convention was very logical and consistent. The later revisions, which most European countries have adopted, are actually very inconsistent.

The 1949 convention used a red circle for all mandatory instructions. If it was a "you must", it had a symbol in a red circle; if it was a "you must not" it had a symbol in a red circle with a diagonal red bar through it.

The later revisions - adopted across Europe, including the UK and lately Ireland - have red circles and blue discs for mandatory instructions. If it's a "you must" it has a symbol in white on a blue disc. If it's a "you must not" it has a symbol in a red circle, and it might have a diagonal red bar through it or it might not, and it might have part of the symbol in red instead of black, or it might not.

You might prefer one system or the other, but it would be hard to argue the present system is more logical, simple or consistent than the 1949 version.
Indeed. Often prohibition road sign style symbols and signs are used for non road purposes, such as no camping as a tent in a red circle with a line through it, or no fires on the beach as a fire in a circle with a line through. You never see a tent symbol just in a red circle etc, which I think demonstrates that the former is more logical and widely understood.

Does Ireland use a P with a line through for no parking, and an S with a line through for no stopping? They seem much more logical, at least in English than the Euro style signs, especially as P is used as a symbol for parking.
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Re: Road signs in Ireland

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Chris5156 wrote:
Bryn666 wrote:The original 1949 convention gave the option of a red circle for mandatory instructions and a strikethrough for prohibitions.

Most of Europe went for blue circles and Ireland was left playing catch up.

Sometimes being the first means you have to make all the mistakes.
I'm not sure I'd call it a mistake - the 1949 convention was very logical and consistent. The later revisions, which most European countries have adopted, are actually very inconsistent.

The 1949 convention used a red circle for all mandatory instructions. If it was a "you must", it had a symbol in a red circle; if it was a "you must not" it had a symbol in a red circle with a diagonal red bar through it.

The later revisions - adopted across Europe, including the UK and lately Ireland - have red circles and blue discs for mandatory instructions. If it's a "you must" it has a symbol in white on a blue disc. If it's a "you must not" it has a symbol in a red circle, and it might have a diagonal red bar through it or it might not, and it might have part of the symbol in red instead of black, or it might not.

You might prefer one system or the other, but it would be hard to argue the present system is more logical, simple or consistent than the 1949 version.
Canada appears to use red for 'must not' and green for 'must' logical until you realise colour blindness comes into play. A strike through for the 'must not' is useful and I like that in the Republic the strikethrough is on the overtaking car not both.

One useful thing the Irish signs do is mark a jurisdiction change that both sides for obvious reasons pretend is not there but mark it it up.
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Re: Road signs in Ireland

Post by bothar »

booshank wrote:.

Does Ireland use a P with a line through for no parking, and an S with a line through for no stopping? They seem much more logical, at least in English than the Euro style signs, especially as P is used as a symbol for parking.
Image

There is no S sign, clearway type signs are used.

Image
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Re: Road signs in Ireland

Post by Chris Bertram »

bothar wrote:There is no S sign, clearway type signs are used.

Image
Those look really odd to me without the blue background (as seen in the UK).
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Re: Road signs in Ireland

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote:
Bryn666 wrote:The original 1949 convention gave the option of a red circle for mandatory instructions and a strikethrough for prohibitions.

Most of Europe went for blue circles and Ireland was left playing catch up.

Sometimes being the first means you have to make all the mistakes.
I'm not sure I'd call it a mistake - the 1949 convention was very logical and consistent. The later revisions, which most European countries have adopted, are actually very inconsistent.

The 1949 convention used a red circle for all mandatory instructions. If it was a "you must", it had a symbol in a red circle; if it was a "you must not" it had a symbol in a red circle with a diagonal red bar through it.

The later revisions - adopted across Europe, including the UK and lately Ireland - have red circles and blue discs for mandatory instructions. If it's a "you must" it has a symbol in white on a blue disc. If it's a "you must not" it has a symbol in a red circle, and it might have a diagonal red bar through it or it might not, and it might have part of the symbol in red instead of black, or it might not.

You might prefer one system or the other, but it would be hard to argue the present system is more logical, simple or consistent than the 1949 version.
The issue with the 1949 spec is that there isn't all that much to distinguish the musts and must nots. Whilst the revised system is a mish mash of styles, there's no danger of mistaking a 'turn left' sign from a 'no left turn' sign. Also from a distance a strike-through when driving can mask the symbol you need to be visible. At walking pace it's much less of a problem.

Mistakes might have been the wrong word, but the point still stands.
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Re: Road signs in Ireland

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Berk wrote:I saw plenty of these in Cork, so although you’re correct, I don't believe there’s been a wholesale replacement.

Besides, as was discussed here previously, the Irish sign has an additional benefit (well, the prohibition version, at least) -meaning ‘No Straight Ahead’. We could do with a sign like that in this country.
Hmm... I'm not convinced...
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Re: Road signs in Ireland

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