What does this sign mean ?
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Re: What does this sign mean ?
They have their uses, and are far preferable to bringing the speed limit out from its 'natural' commencement to compensate. However, as said, they are unlawful in England and can cause problems for enforcement as a result.
The rest of Europe would just use the normal roundel and a distance plate, but apparently we find this kind of thing difficult here and insist on verbose information signs because... well, why? See attachment, which sign is easier to read at speed in 2 seconds?
The rest of Europe would just use the normal roundel and a distance plate, but apparently we find this kind of thing difficult here and insist on verbose information signs because... well, why? See attachment, which sign is easier to read at speed in 2 seconds?
Bryn
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Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
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Re: What does this sign mean ?
While not as bad as the USA (they are awful for word heavy signs). I feel we have lost our way a bit with these wordy long winded signs when a simple diagram or picture achieves the result and is easier to comprehend.Bryn666 wrote:They have their uses, and are far preferable to bringing the speed limit out from its 'natural' commencement to compensate. However, as said, they are unlawful in England and can cause problems for enforcement as a result.
The rest of Europe would just use the normal roundel and a distance plate, but apparently we find this kind of thing difficult here and insist on verbose information signs because... well, why? See attachment, which sign is easier to read at speed in 2 seconds?
- Mark Hewitt
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Re: What does this sign mean ?
The second one. Because I see the top "Low bridge" then I can decide from there if that information is relevant to me. The first one takes much more decoding time.Bryn666 wrote:They have their uses, and are far preferable to bringing the speed limit out from its 'natural' commencement to compensate. However, as said, they are unlawful in England and can cause problems for enforcement as a result.
The rest of Europe would just use the normal roundel and a distance plate, but apparently we find this kind of thing difficult here and insist on verbose information signs because... well, why? See attachment, which sign is easier to read at speed in 2 seconds?
Re: What does this sign mean ?
And for those who don't speak English? You can tell by looking at the height roundel itself that a low bridge applies, it has a symbol for that very purpose. You don't need words to tell you that, so you can discount it straight away without needing to read an essay.Mark Hewitt wrote:The second one. Because I see the top "Low bridge" then I can decide from there if that information is relevant to me. The first one takes much more decoding time.Bryn666 wrote:They have their uses, and are far preferable to bringing the speed limit out from its 'natural' commencement to compensate. However, as said, they are unlawful in England and can cause problems for enforcement as a result.
The rest of Europe would just use the normal roundel and a distance plate, but apparently we find this kind of thing difficult here and insist on verbose information signs because... well, why? See attachment, which sign is easier to read at speed in 2 seconds?
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
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Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Re: What does this sign mean ?
The problem with the original example is that various forms have proliferated the country in the absence of any standard. Here are two, both from LA maintained A roads in Derbyshire which are intended to convey the same message
https://goo.gl/maps/WsqJLapZL8F2
https://goo.gl/maps/4pHkhu8jigt
https://goo.gl/maps/WsqJLapZL8F2
https://goo.gl/maps/4pHkhu8jigt
Re: What does this sign mean ?
I think the second of these 2 is fine, because the roundel is black (there are some of these in Lincolnshire - I just can't recall exactly where). It's the red roundel on the first sign which muddies the waters legally, especially when the size of the roundel appears correct. Whatever the signs say the speed limit will start exactly where stated in the restriction order. I just think that ought to be quite clear to the motorist.Yorkie wrote:The problem with the original example is that various forms have proliferated the country in the absence of any standard. Here are two, both from LA maintained A roads in Derbyshire which are intended to convey the same message
https://goo.gl/maps/WsqJLapZL8F2
https://goo.gl/maps/4pHkhu8jigt
Re: What does this sign mean ?
The first one. However, given that the emphasis in enforcement is on the red ring (see speed limit countdown signs) it should probably be signed with a black ring.Bryn666 wrote:They have their uses, and are far preferable to bringing the speed limit out from its 'natural' commencement to compensate. However, as said, they are unlawful in England and can cause problems for enforcement as a result.
The rest of Europe would just use the normal roundel and a distance plate, but apparently we find this kind of thing difficult here and insist on verbose information signs because... well, why? See attachment, which sign is easier to read at speed in 2 seconds?
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Re: What does this sign mean ?
60mph repeater sharing same pole with countdown to junction sign, of course.
- rachandsarai
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Re: What does this sign mean ?
Ur right with that Glen. Countdown signs for coming into villages, towns and cities do have the speed limit in the circle along with 3 /// then 2 // then 1 / before the MPH sign in the circle on its own or above the places name. Those ones in that photo don't look like any countdown sign I have ever seen.Glen wrote:I don't think these countdown signs have ever been properly authorised in England.
The ones authorised, and widely used, in Scotland have the speed limit roundel within the same panel as the countdown.
Rachel Harper, A Scottish Vehicle Spotter and Road enthusiast in Scotland.
- michael769
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Re: What does this sign mean ?
TSRGD specifically calls out that special authorizations can override the provisions of TSRGD. As long as they are authorized they are lawful and mean what the special authorization says they mean.nowster wrote:The combination of a 30 mph speed limit sign and a countdown marker on the same backing board doesn't change the meaning of the constituent signs. It's the same meaning as the two individual signs on the same pole. The following 30mph signs would become (unlawful?) repeaters.
In Scotland they blanket authorized to be non-regulatory signs that convey to drivers the information that a lower speed limit (as indicated) begins up ahead.
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Re: What does this sign mean ?
Whist in Scotland they are liked and hence nationally authorised, the DfT in England don't like them. It doesn't stop people sticking them up of course, but it runs the risk of invalidating a speed limit if the signs are deemed to be at odds with the RTRA 1984.michael769 wrote:TSRGD specifically calls out that special authorizations can override the provisions of TSRGD. As long as they are authorized they are lawful and mean what the special authorization says they mean.nowster wrote:The combination of a 30 mph speed limit sign and a countdown marker on the same backing board doesn't change the meaning of the constituent signs. It's the same meaning as the two individual signs on the same pole. The following 30mph signs would become (unlawful?) repeaters.
In Scotland they blanket authorized to be non-regulatory signs that convey to drivers the information that a lower speed limit (as indicated) begins up ahead.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
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- Chris Bertram
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Re: What does this sign mean ?
They're said not to like "gateway" speed limits (you know, the 100 yds of 40mph just outside the proper 30 limit for a town or village) either, but that doesn't stop them being implemented.Bryn666 wrote:Whist in Scotland they are liked and hence nationally authorised, the DfT in England don't like them. It doesn't stop people sticking them up of course, but it runs the risk of invalidating a speed limit if the signs are deemed to be at odds with the RTRA 1984.
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Re: What does this sign mean ?
That's the difference, they don't like those but they're not unlawful to put in.
Most of those silly buffers could be avoided if countdown signs were allowed.
The rest of the world has no problem with warning people of a reduced speed limit ahead.
Most of those silly buffers could be avoided if countdown signs were allowed.
The rest of the world has no problem with warning people of a reduced speed limit ahead.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Re: What does this sign mean ?
Err nope. Under TSRGD the relevant national body can authorise a sign of a different nature or can add a meaning to a prescribed sign. What it cannot do is authorise one prescribed sign to have the same meaning as another prescribed sign, nor can an authorisation amend a requirement or restriction in the Regs. An S.I. would be needed for that. Finally an authorisation is limited to a single authority, anything wider would also need to be an S.I.michael769 wrote:TSRGD specifically calls out that special authorizations can override the provisions of TSRGD. As long as they are authorized they are lawful and mean what the special authorization says they mean.nowster wrote:The combination of a 30 mph speed limit sign and a countdown marker on the same backing board doesn't change the meaning of the constituent signs. It's the same meaning as the two individual signs on the same pole. The following 30mph signs would become (unlawful?) repeaters.
In Scotland they blanket authorized to be non-regulatory signs that convey to drivers the information that a lower speed limit (as indicated) begins up ahead.
This is all covered in Section U6.1.2 in TSM Chapter 8 Part 3
Re: What does this sign mean ?
The alternative (and obviously disliked option) is to locate the sign with the required clear visibility distance and maintaining it by cutting back vegetation. Countdown signs on anything other than the worst situations is an indication that an authority cannot be bothered to design signing schemes properly. I think the only ones I signed off were on the A35 and A36, neither of which are really primary road quality never mind that of a trunk road (although both are nice drives first thing on a Summers morning).Bryn666 wrote:That's the difference, they don't like those but they're not unlawful to put in.
Most of those silly buffers could be avoided if countdown signs were allowed.
The rest of the world has no problem with warning people of a reduced speed limit ahead.
Re: What does this sign mean ?
This satisfies the requirements for signposting a speed limit change, yet it is virtually invisible as a gateway: https://goo.gl/maps/f6TUcMpexfT2
Designing 'to the standard' sometimes is not good enough, you have to go beyond it.
It's why I like the French approach of slapping a roundabout in at the first opportunity so you have to slow down for the village: https://goo.gl/maps/XqPCpiFTY4D2
Designing 'to the standard' sometimes is not good enough, you have to go beyond it.
It's why I like the French approach of slapping a roundabout in at the first opportunity so you have to slow down for the village: https://goo.gl/maps/XqPCpiFTY4D2
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
- lefthandedspanner
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Re: What does this sign mean ?
Round my way, when a speed limit changes, roundels are often painted onto the road surface itself, particularly in places where the signs are easily missed, e.g. here, where any sensible driver turning left off the main road is concentrating first and foremost on trying to avoid hitting anything while negotiating the corner.Bryn666 wrote:This satisfies the requirements for signposting a speed limit change, yet it is virtually invisible as a gateway: https://goo.gl/maps/f6TUcMpexfT2