What does this sign mean ?

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2 Sheds
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What does this sign mean ?

Post by 2 Sheds »

I am curious about the legality of this type of countdown sign. Sometimes with countdown markers warning of speed limits ahead, the speed roundel is in black. But when it's red like this one, where does the 30mph limit start legally? The roundels are red on the 300, 200, and 100 metres warnings here at Dunham on the A 57 in Nottinghamshire.
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nowster
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by nowster »

It means that the speed limit starts at the sign, and there's a countdown to some hazard ahead.
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

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Glen
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Glen »

I don't think these countdown signs have ever been properly authorised in England.

The ones authorised, and widely used, in Scotland have the speed limit roundel within the same panel as the countdown.
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Fenlander »

Nice idea badly implemented.
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FleetlinePhil
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by FleetlinePhil »

In both the Dunham and Fife examples, a quick look on Google Earth shows the markers do count down to a 30 limit sign. In the former case, it has a yellow surround with flashing amber lights. Perhaps somebody with experience of uploading GSV images could oblige?
I would assume the limit starts at that point, and although I could not comment on the technical correctness or otherwise of the countdown signs, I think their meaning shoud be pretty clear.
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nowster
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by nowster »

The combination of a 30 mph speed limit sign and a countdown marker on the same backing board doesn't change the meaning of the constituent signs. It's the same meaning as the two individual signs on the same pole. The following 30mph signs would become (unlawful?) repeaters.
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Johnathan404 »

A couple of years ago Portsmouth City Council installed a 30mph gateway sign on a slip road. Unfortunately, the sign was placed a good 10m before the split, meaning it technically applied to the mainline too. While I knew what the speed limits were so was deliberately misreading it, it's easy to see how somebody on the mainline could be confused.

Having bashed my head against the wall trying to get Portsmouth City Council to understand how to use speed limit signs before, I wasn't going to bother. Instead one day I decided to tweet Hampshire Police, apologising for wasting their time with pedantry, but explaining that if I could spot the problem then a lawyer could too. Despite my informal choice of channel, the offending sign was gone two days later, with a reply thanking me.

Some of the examples given above are clearly well-intentioned engineers trying to do the best job with unhelpful regulations, and perhaps don't deserve the full force of SABRE pedantry. But in the cases where those responsible really should know better ("if they get this wrong what other important things will they mess up"), I'd recommend the message above as a way to remind them you probably should stick to the regulations.
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FleetlinePhil
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by FleetlinePhil »

I've just had a scan through "Know Your Traffic Signs", there is no mention of countdown markers in the Speed Restriction section, and the non-motorway Countdown Markers section reads as below:
"Countdown markers indicate the distance to the start of the deceleration lane. Each bar represents about 100 yards. These signs may also be used on the approach to a roundabout or crossroads. On non-primary routes, the bars are black on a white background". No mention of speed limits.

So is there no legitimate way of displaying a countdown to, or indeed any form of advance warning of a speed limit?
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nowster
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by nowster »

My suggestion would be for a white-on-blue information sign saying

Code: Select all

Speed Limit 30mph
  300 yds ahead
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Lockwood
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Lockwood »

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.04361 ... 312!8i6656

The thing is, on one hand people calling for picture signs, on the other people complaining about them.
40 \ \ \
40 \ \
40 \
40
is fairly intuitive. There's a thing and a countdown.

"Entry to 40 mph speed limit 300 yards ahead" is a quite verbose way of conveying the same message.


I also seem to remember seeing somewhere a triangle hazard sign and countdown. Can't remember what the hazard was, or where it was though.
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nowster
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by nowster »

Intuitive? Perhaps. Lawful? Perhaps not.
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Glen
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Glen »

FleetlinePhil wrote:So is there no legitimate way of displaying a countdown to, or indeed any form of advance warning of a speed limit?
In England and Wales, no.
The signs used in Scotland, with the speed limit roundel within the countdown sign, have been authorised by the relevant minister to be used be each local authority.
(Although there are one or two examples where this has been done incorrectly with the speed limit and countdown as separate signs.)
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Mark Hewitt »

It’s common in Scotland but not unknown in England. This on the approach to Belsay in Northumberland. Image
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Lockwood
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Lockwood »

nowster wrote:Intuitive? Perhaps. Lawful? Perhaps not.
So, should the signs be changed or TSRGD?
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Debaser »

From 'Setting Local Speed Limits' (Scottish version)
"65. The TSRGD does not prescribe the use of Countdown Markers on the approach to speed limit terminal signs. However, in 1995 the former Scottish Office issued a "blanket authorisation" permitting their use at Traffic Authorities' discretion."

From 'Setting Local Speed Limits' (English version 2013)
"58. The legislation does not prescribe the use of countdown markers on the approach to speed limit terminal signs, and research has shown that they generally have little or no effect on vehicle speeds and can add to sign clutter."

In fact there is research, conducted for DfT, which suggests they are effective and over both the short and long term...but there you go.
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Viator »

Mark Hewitt wrote:It’s common in Scotland but not unknown in England...
...or in Wales: A438 approaching Glasbury.

However, this variant, also on an approach to Glasbury (B4350) should really have a black not a red ring, I believe.

P.S. Aren't the countdown stripes on Mark's example reversed?
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by AutoUnder »

They have a set of these going into Galgate on the A6 in Lancashire
Slash 30.jpg
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Mark Hewitt
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Mark Hewitt »

Viator wrote:
Mark Hewitt wrote:It’s common in Scotland but not unknown in England...
...or in Wales: A438 approaching Glasbury.

However, this variant, also on an approach to Glasbury (B4350) should really have a black not a red ring, I believe.

P.S. Aren't the countdown stripes on Mark's example reversed?
Now that you mention it, yes they are. The ones on the /// and the / are correct so the // has been installed on the wrong side of the road.
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nowster
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by nowster »

AutoUnder wrote:They have a set of these going into Galgate on the A6 in Lancashire
These are single signs due to the black border, rather than being several signs on a single backing board.
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