What does this sign mean ?

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Bryn666
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Bryn666 »

They have their uses, and are far preferable to bringing the speed limit out from its 'natural' commencement to compensate. However, as said, they are unlawful in England and can cause problems for enforcement as a result.

The rest of Europe would just use the normal roundel and a distance plate, but apparently we find this kind of thing difficult here and insist on verbose information signs because... well, why? See attachment, which sign is easier to read at speed in 2 seconds?
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by James »

Bryn666 wrote:They have their uses, and are far preferable to bringing the speed limit out from its 'natural' commencement to compensate. However, as said, they are unlawful in England and can cause problems for enforcement as a result.

The rest of Europe would just use the normal roundel and a distance plate, but apparently we find this kind of thing difficult here and insist on verbose information signs because... well, why? See attachment, which sign is easier to read at speed in 2 seconds?
While not as bad as the USA (they are awful for word heavy signs). I feel we have lost our way a bit with these wordy long winded signs when a simple diagram or picture achieves the result and is easier to comprehend.
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Mark Hewitt »

Bryn666 wrote:They have their uses, and are far preferable to bringing the speed limit out from its 'natural' commencement to compensate. However, as said, they are unlawful in England and can cause problems for enforcement as a result.

The rest of Europe would just use the normal roundel and a distance plate, but apparently we find this kind of thing difficult here and insist on verbose information signs because... well, why? See attachment, which sign is easier to read at speed in 2 seconds?
The second one. Because I see the top "Low bridge" then I can decide from there if that information is relevant to me. The first one takes much more decoding time.
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Bryn666 »

Mark Hewitt wrote:
Bryn666 wrote:They have their uses, and are far preferable to bringing the speed limit out from its 'natural' commencement to compensate. However, as said, they are unlawful in England and can cause problems for enforcement as a result.

The rest of Europe would just use the normal roundel and a distance plate, but apparently we find this kind of thing difficult here and insist on verbose information signs because... well, why? See attachment, which sign is easier to read at speed in 2 seconds?
The second one. Because I see the top "Low bridge" then I can decide from there if that information is relevant to me. The first one takes much more decoding time.
And for those who don't speak English? You can tell by looking at the height roundel itself that a low bridge applies, it has a symbol for that very purpose. You don't need words to tell you that, so you can discount it straight away without needing to read an essay.
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Lockwood »

The second one, because the blue panel draws my eye more.
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Yorkie »

The problem with the original example is that various forms have proliferated the country in the absence of any standard. Here are two, both from LA maintained A roads in Derbyshire which are intended to convey the same message

https://goo.gl/maps/WsqJLapZL8F2
https://goo.gl/maps/4pHkhu8jigt
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by 2 Sheds »

Yorkie wrote:The problem with the original example is that various forms have proliferated the country in the absence of any standard. Here are two, both from LA maintained A roads in Derbyshire which are intended to convey the same message

https://goo.gl/maps/WsqJLapZL8F2
https://goo.gl/maps/4pHkhu8jigt
I think the second of these 2 is fine, because the roundel is black (there are some of these in Lincolnshire - I just can't recall exactly where). It's the red roundel on the first sign which muddies the waters legally, especially when the size of the roundel appears correct. Whatever the signs say the speed limit will start exactly where stated in the restriction order. I just think that ought to be quite clear to the motorist.
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Arcuarius »

Bryn666 wrote:They have their uses, and are far preferable to bringing the speed limit out from its 'natural' commencement to compensate. However, as said, they are unlawful in England and can cause problems for enforcement as a result.

The rest of Europe would just use the normal roundel and a distance plate, but apparently we find this kind of thing difficult here and insist on verbose information signs because... well, why? See attachment, which sign is easier to read at speed in 2 seconds?
The first one. However, given that the emphasis in enforcement is on the red ring (see speed limit countdown signs) it should probably be signed with a black ring.
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by nowster »

There's a set on the A55 approaching Penmaenbach headland.

https://goo.gl/maps/Br8V38z1Ky52
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by jusme »

So what does this mean...
vlcsnap-2017-12-17-16h31m14s322.jpg
vlcsnap-2017-12-17-16h31m14s322.jpg (6.01 KiB) Viewed 2256 times
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nowster
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by nowster »

60mph repeater sharing same pole with countdown to junction sign, of course.
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by rachandsarai »

Glen wrote:I don't think these countdown signs have ever been properly authorised in England.

The ones authorised, and widely used, in Scotland have the speed limit roundel within the same panel as the countdown.
Ur right with that Glen. Countdown signs for coming into villages, towns and cities do have the speed limit in the circle along with 3 /// then 2 // then 1 / before the MPH sign in the circle on its own or above the places name. Those ones in that photo don't look like any countdown sign I have ever seen.
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by michael769 »

nowster wrote:The combination of a 30 mph speed limit sign and a countdown marker on the same backing board doesn't change the meaning of the constituent signs. It's the same meaning as the two individual signs on the same pole. The following 30mph signs would become (unlawful?) repeaters.
TSRGD specifically calls out that special authorizations can override the provisions of TSRGD. As long as they are authorized they are lawful and mean what the special authorization says they mean.

In Scotland they blanket authorized to be non-regulatory signs that convey to drivers the information that a lower speed limit (as indicated) begins up ahead.
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Bryn666 »

michael769 wrote:
nowster wrote:The combination of a 30 mph speed limit sign and a countdown marker on the same backing board doesn't change the meaning of the constituent signs. It's the same meaning as the two individual signs on the same pole. The following 30mph signs would become (unlawful?) repeaters.
TSRGD specifically calls out that special authorizations can override the provisions of TSRGD. As long as they are authorized they are lawful and mean what the special authorization says they mean.

In Scotland they blanket authorized to be non-regulatory signs that convey to drivers the information that a lower speed limit (as indicated) begins up ahead.
Whist in Scotland they are liked and hence nationally authorised, the DfT in England don't like them. It doesn't stop people sticking them up of course, but it runs the risk of invalidating a speed limit if the signs are deemed to be at odds with the RTRA 1984.
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Chris Bertram »

Bryn666 wrote:Whist in Scotland they are liked and hence nationally authorised, the DfT in England don't like them. It doesn't stop people sticking them up of course, but it runs the risk of invalidating a speed limit if the signs are deemed to be at odds with the RTRA 1984.
They're said not to like "gateway" speed limits (you know, the 100 yds of 40mph just outside the proper 30 limit for a town or village) either, but that doesn't stop them being implemented.
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Bryn666 »

That's the difference, they don't like those but they're not unlawful to put in.

Most of those silly buffers could be avoided if countdown signs were allowed.

The rest of the world has no problem with warning people of a reduced speed limit ahead.
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Bomag »

michael769 wrote:
nowster wrote:The combination of a 30 mph speed limit sign and a countdown marker on the same backing board doesn't change the meaning of the constituent signs. It's the same meaning as the two individual signs on the same pole. The following 30mph signs would become (unlawful?) repeaters.
TSRGD specifically calls out that special authorizations can override the provisions of TSRGD. As long as they are authorized they are lawful and mean what the special authorization says they mean.

In Scotland they blanket authorized to be non-regulatory signs that convey to drivers the information that a lower speed limit (as indicated) begins up ahead.
Err nope. Under TSRGD the relevant national body can authorise a sign of a different nature or can add a meaning to a prescribed sign. What it cannot do is authorise one prescribed sign to have the same meaning as another prescribed sign, nor can an authorisation amend a requirement or restriction in the Regs. An S.I. would be needed for that. Finally an authorisation is limited to a single authority, anything wider would also need to be an S.I.

This is all covered in Section U6.1.2 in TSM Chapter 8 Part 3
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Bomag »

Bryn666 wrote:That's the difference, they don't like those but they're not unlawful to put in.

Most of those silly buffers could be avoided if countdown signs were allowed.

The rest of the world has no problem with warning people of a reduced speed limit ahead.
The alternative (and obviously disliked option) is to locate the sign with the required clear visibility distance and maintaining it by cutting back vegetation. Countdown signs on anything other than the worst situations is an indication that an authority cannot be bothered to design signing schemes properly. I think the only ones I signed off were on the A35 and A36, neither of which are really primary road quality never mind that of a trunk road (although both are nice drives first thing on a Summers morning).
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by Bryn666 »

This satisfies the requirements for signposting a speed limit change, yet it is virtually invisible as a gateway: https://goo.gl/maps/f6TUcMpexfT2

Designing 'to the standard' sometimes is not good enough, you have to go beyond it.

It's why I like the French approach of slapping a roundabout in at the first opportunity so you have to slow down for the village: https://goo.gl/maps/XqPCpiFTY4D2
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Re: What does this sign mean ?

Post by lefthandedspanner »

Bryn666 wrote:This satisfies the requirements for signposting a speed limit change, yet it is virtually invisible as a gateway: https://goo.gl/maps/f6TUcMpexfT2
Round my way, when a speed limit changes, roundels are often painted onto the road surface itself, particularly in places where the signs are easily missed, e.g. here, where any sensible driver turning left off the main road is concentrating first and foremost on trying to avoid hitting anything while negotiating the corner.
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