Sabristi-created road signs

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Patrick Harper
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Sabristi-created road signs

Post by Patrick Harper »

I'm surprised such a thread does not seem to exist and I can't think of a good reason not to create one, so here goes...

When I was an apprentice at HCC I was given an exercise (although my work has a chance of being the final product) to design new signs for the A1170/Essex Road roundabout (and the approaches) in Hoddesdon, Hertfordshire. This is needed because as part of the New River Bridge project, the Essex Road connection will move from the north-side to the east-side of the roundabout and the old Essex Road will become a no-through route for vehicles.

HCC had a rather buggy old version of the KeySIGN AutoCAD addon, compared to some of my colleagues from Opus (now WSP) who I shared an office with, but I learnt my way around it and eventually arrived at a decent selection. None of these are to scale.
Core Sign Collage_480.png
All the lane gain/lane merge signs are related to the Burford Street connection to the A1170. The lane from this road will be hatched out approaching the roundabout due to insufficient space at north side of the roundabout.

A couple of map signs feature rather sub-standard arrays of destinations for A10(S) and A10(N). In both cases this was used to save space, either vertically or horizontally (the former for vfm, the latter due to insufficient verge space).

In the next few posts I'll cover some other groups of my sign designs.
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Re: Sabristi-created road signs

Post by nowster »

I'd have put a thin space (same as follows the A) between the number and the N or S in the compromise signs to aid comprehension.
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Re: Sabristi-created road signs

Post by Patrick Harper »

It was suggested to me that signs on other parts of the ring-road could be replaced to make them more consistent with destinations on the Essex Rd. Rbt. signs, especially as the project is designed to service the recently renamed Hoddesdon Business Park and most signs still refer to this as the 'Industrial Area'. I was also told this was beyond the scope of the project, but for contingency I designed new signs for The Sun and the A1170/B1197 roundabouts.

Here there are a number of stack-signs as the verges on the D2 Amwell Street are tiny. The lone 'A1170' confirmation sign is actually for the Burford Street connection but I forgot to include it on the previous collage.
Extended Sign Collage_480.png
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Re: Sabristi-created road signs

Post by Conekicker »

You may wish to consider the design of some of your stack signs. Without looking up where it's specified but the order each panel should appear in, running down from the top of the sign is ahead, left, right. You have some right, lefts.

Also on THE SUN roundabout ADS, if it's followed by the "Town centre/P" DS, then it's poor practise to introduce a new destination, (in this case "Town centre") on a DS. So either add it to the ADS or delete it from the DS.

Not knowing the area but are you sure you're complying with the furthest first rule?

(A10(N)) and (A10(S)) as well.

Where do I send my bill for checking your design work to?
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Re: Sabristi-created road signs

Post by Patrick Harper »

Conekicker wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 08:55Also on THE SUN roundabout ADS, if it's followed by the "Town centre/P" DS, then it's poor practise to introduce a new destination, (in this case "Town centre") on a DS. So either add it to the ADS or delete it from the DS.
'Town centre' was omitted from the ADS because it was already specified on the westbound Burford St. DS and ADS. It's on the DS for The SUN because it is specified on ADS' from other directions.
Not knowing the area but are you sure you're complying with the furthest first rule?
The tourist patch for the sports centre would ideally fall above 'Rye Park' but TBH I should have removed it entirely at some point, it wasn't worthy enough for inclusion. The confirmation sign with A10 and A414 is disputable, supposedly the 'semi-spur' west of Amwell still has the A10 designation, dating from a time when the A10 was trunk and the A414 followed Stanstead Road, in this instance Cambridge should be listed above Harlow. If this spur is now the A414 then Cambridge should be listed below Harlow.
(A10(N)) and (A10(S)) as well.
According to the TSRGD you can have only A10(S) or (A10S).
Last edited by Patrick Harper on Sat Oct 20, 2018 15:57, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sabristi-created road signs

Post by Patrick Harper »

Time for the last couple of sets. These feature designs assembled solely from my own free will, and they address the A120 projects, specifically the Little Hadham Bypass and tweaks to the road through Standon.

The bypass signs were motivated by discovering rather poor efforts deep on HCC's servers, presumably made by engineers employed by private contractors. I never made more than a couple as I was informed that writing a report listing the problems needing to be corrected would be more...respectful?
Hadham Collage_480.png
At the western end of Standon Hill, the largely disused section of former A120 (predating the Puckeridge Bypass) will be extended to serve a residential development. From this will also be built a new southbound one-way access road to the A120. At the same time, a section of Cambridge Road north of the A120 will be converted to one-way northbound up to the Old Standon Hill junction.

There were no signs in the project directory, so I made some. I never told anyone so whether these will be used I have no idea.
Standon Collage_480.png
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Re: Sabristi-created road signs

Post by Bryn666 »

My portfolio is a bit big to fit in a single post these days...
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Re: Sabristi-created road signs

Post by Johnathan404 »

Bryn666 wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 15:48 My portfolio is a bit big to fit in a single post these days...
Also the sharks in Botched Roadsigns would be waiting :twisted:
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Re: Sabristi-created road signs

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Johnathan404 wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 16:18
Bryn666 wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 15:48 My portfolio is a bit big to fit in a single post these days...
Also the sharks in Botched Roadsigns would be waiting :twisted:
Well probably but remember, those that can do, and those that can't post about others who also can't on SABRE. :twisted:
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Re: Sabristi-created road signs

Post by Conekicker »

Skye wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 13:59 According to the TSRGD you can have only A10(S) or (A10S).
Quite right, I was thinking of (A1(M)) - TSM 7 fig 3-8. In this case it would be (A10S). Unhelpfully there are no examples in either TSRGD 2002 or 2016, apart from a few with full compass points, which wouldn't give an appropriate spacing, see below.

The gap between the "0" and the "N" or "S" would be 1 stroke width, as indicated by the "1m" in fig 2-2 and the "(A1(M))" in fig 3-8, given that I can't see a gap between a numeral and an abbreviation defined anywhere else. Unless it's only 0.5 s/w, as in "£25m"!
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Re: Sabristi-created road signs

Post by ais523 »

Skye wrote: Sun Oct 14, 2018 22:10 All the lane gain/lane merge signs are related to the Burford Street connection to the A1170. The lane from this road will be hatched out approaching the roundabout due to insufficient space at north side of the roundabout.
I'm actually astonished that the lane diagrams used at merges and diverges aren't completely standardised. There are only a few common arrangements, and things like "lane gain making a D2 into a D3, as seen from the merging road, non-primary colours" and "lane gain making a D2 into a D3, as seen from the main road, non-primary colours" are common enough that you'd think the sign for that would be an off-the-shelf design that could be downloaded from a government website somewhere rather than having to be designed every time it was needed.

It'd probably be beneficial for road safety for the signs of that nature to all look the same, too.

(That said, I'm having problems even finding the rules for these signs in the TSRGD. I assume that they're 873/874 variants, but not all variants of the lane connections are shown on the example diagram and I can't find the rules for how to vary them.)
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Re: Sabristi-created road signs

Post by jgharston »

(A.10.S) is certainly easier to read than (A.10S) or (A10S), and less cluttered than any varient of (A10(S)) (where . represents a half space)
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Re: Sabristi-created road signs

Post by Conekicker »

ais523 wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 03:48I'm actually astonished that the lane diagrams used at merges and diverges aren't completely standardised. There are only a few common arrangements, and things like "lane gain making a D2 into a D3, as seen from the merging road, non-primary colours" and "lane gain making a D2 into a D3, as seen from the main road, non-primary colours" are common enough that you'd think the sign for that would be an off-the-shelf design that could be downloaded from a government website somewhere rather than having to be designed every time it was needed.

It'd probably be beneficial for road safety for the signs of that nature to all look the same, too.

(That said, I'm having problems even finding the rules for these signs in the TSRGD. I assume that they're 873/874 variants, but not all variants of the lane connections are shown on the example diagram and I can't find the rules for how to vary them.)
You mean the white background cranky arrow signs in the OP? They are indeed 873/874, with the lane drop one being an 872.1. Designs are shown on the relevant Working Drawings.

All good sign design programmes have the most common ones already drawn up (and many of the less common ones as well). There's little design effort required to get one drawn up. I'm not sure why a government website should have all the potential variants drawn up ready to download though. If you don't have a sign design programme, it doesn't take long to draw them from scratch in CAD.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... 4-p873.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... p872x1.pdf

If you feel the urge to stick a distance plate on the bottom of the sign, it's simply standard design rules (2.5 s/w gap from the top of the plate, 8 s/w text, 1.5 s/w gap to the bottom border).
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Re: Sabristi-created road signs

Post by Bryn666 »

Such signs are ridiculously large at 300mm x-height, and arguably needlessly so as arrows aren't text. The rest of Europe copes with much smaller versions.
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Re: Sabristi-created road signs

Post by Johnathan404 »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 22:24 Such signs are ridiculously large at 300mm x-height, and arguably needlessly so as arrows aren't text. The rest of Europe copes with much smaller versions.
It's crazy. Take a sign like this which, admittedly, is borrowing some old posts. The information it contains is barely worth sharing, hardly difficult to digest, and yet it gets two massive advance warnings.

All of that effort to tell you a lane is appearing and yet they neglect to tell you that the same lane drops half a mile later.

Having said that I was a fan of this old one mile warning just for the sheer overkill. Now sadly removed as the layout changed and it wasn't replaced.
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Re: Sabristi-created road signs

Post by Patrick Harper »

I brought up the fact that if the Burford St./A1170 connection was converted to a standard sliproad merge with the respective lane markings, which seems logical to me, then only a pair of warning signs; 508.1 and 509.1, would be required. The empty space to the east could be repurposed for a widened shared use path. Again, I can only hope that their drawings were or are going to be revised at some point as I could not access them at the time.
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Re: Sabristi-created road signs

Post by Arcuarius »

Bryn666 wrote: Sat Oct 20, 2018 15:48 My portfolio is a bit big to fit in a single post these days...
Little bit of buffeting then?? :)
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Re: Sabristi-created road signs

Post by crazyknightsfan »

Conekicker wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 13:17
ais523 wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 03:48I'm actually astonished that the lane diagrams used at merges and diverges aren't completely standardised. There are only a few common arrangements, and things like "lane gain making a D2 into a D3, as seen from the merging road, non-primary colours" and "lane gain making a D2 into a D3, as seen from the main road, non-primary colours" are common enough that you'd think the sign for that would be an off-the-shelf design that could be downloaded from a government website somewhere rather than having to be designed every time it was needed.

It'd probably be beneficial for road safety for the signs of that nature to all look the same, too.

(That said, I'm having problems even finding the rules for these signs in the TSRGD. I assume that they're 873/874 variants, but not all variants of the lane connections are shown on the example diagram and I can't find the rules for how to vary them.)
You mean the white background cranky arrow signs in the OP? They are indeed 873/874, with the lane drop one being an 872.1. Designs are shown on the relevant Working Drawings.

All good sign design programmes have the most common ones already drawn up (and many of the less common ones as well). There's little design effort required to get one drawn up. I'm not sure why a government website should have all the potential variants drawn up ready to download though. If you don't have a sign design programme, it doesn't take long to draw them from scratch in CAD.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... 4-p873.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... p872x1.pdf

If you feel the urge to stick a distance plate on the bottom of the sign, it's simply standard design rules (2.5 s/w gap from the top of the plate, 8 s/w text, 1.5 s/w gap to the bottom border).
With an influx of British staff at Main Roads Western Australia, we got our first 'tiger tail' merge complete with an 873 variant. Should I chuck this in Botched Roadsigns or did they do alright? :D
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Re: Sabristi-created road signs

Post by Bryn666 »

crazyknightsfan wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:45 With an influx of British staff at Main Roads Western Australia, we got our first 'tiger tail' merge complete with an 873 variant. Should I chuck this in Botched Roadsigns or did they do alright? :D
Sensibly sized - check.
Matches Australian freeway sign standards - check.
Layout clear - check.

Gets a thumbs up from me. Others may comment on the actual posts and their crash-worthiness but Australian standards may be different anyway.
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Re: Sabristi-created road signs

Post by Conekicker »

crazyknightsfan wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:45With an influx of British staff at Main Roads Western Australia, we got our first 'tiger tail' merge complete with an 873 variant. Should I chuck this in Botched Roadsigns or did they do alright? :D
So that explains the query we got at work recently regarding the use of UK EDR symbols from a chap at MRWA.
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