Keep Left Unless overtaking

[Bryn666]

Up to the 1980s S3 carriageways commonly had a "Keep to Nearside Lane Except when Overtaking" plate.

I wonder if there are any left.

Probably not - they were pre-Worboys design - but I remember them well. A5 in the Cannock area had them.

Certainly erected in Worboys time; I well remember white-on-blue ones, in fact they pretty much replaced the older black-on-white.

Unfortunately they gave the impression that the centre lane was only for overtaking; right turners were forgotten. Not so much at road junctions, where the markings reverted to WS2, but those turning right into farm fields, frontages, etc. These were common accident points on S3, whereas the mythical head-on between overtakers was almost unknown.

Rear-end smashes were indeed more common and anyone who has studied traffic collisions should know this, in fact turning right on an S3 was arguably more suicidal than bombing down to overtake because the latter were too busy looking for a gap to return to and didn't spot your trafficator arm pointing out to the right as you drew to a halt.

[Rob590]

There are signs at two sets of traffic lights near me, which say "Right turners give way to oncoming traffic".
Yes, they certainly do. What about it?

The only time I've encountered a sign such as this is on the A6211 where it terminates on the A60 as part of the Nottingham Ring Road here. The traffic lights are a crossroads, with a small residential road opposite the A6211, across 6 lanes of the A60. I think it's entirely appropriate - I can see why how it would be easy to miss the small street opposite, or to presume the traffic light sequences are staggered.

To be honest I'd happily see a bit more of this stuff. The A1 Western Bypass in Gateshead is crying out for a 'use all three lanes' sign northbound after J67.

[Arcuarius]

There are signs at two sets of traffic lights near me, which say "Right turners give way to oncoming traffic".
Yes, they certainly do. What about it?

The only time I've encountered a sign such as this is on the A6211 where it terminates on the A60 as part of the Nottingham Ring Road here. The traffic lights are a crossroads, with a small residential road opposite the A6211, across 6 lanes of the A60. I think it's entirely appropriate - I can see why how it would be easy to miss the small street opposite, or to presume the traffic light sequences are staggered.

To be honest I'd happily see a bit more of this stuff. The A1 Western Bypass in Gateshead is crying out for a 'use all three lanes' sign northbound after J67.

Shouldn't you be giving way to oncoming traffic anyway? Are people that crap at driving that they need to be told how to navigate a junction?

I've seen another one in another part of Nottingham, here, that says "Left turners wait for green arrow". This is a signallised T-junction where your only options are left or right. I cannot comprehend the level of collective numptiness that requires such a sign.

[Rob590]

There are signs at two sets of traffic lights near me, which say "Right turners give way to oncoming traffic".
Yes, they certainly do. What about it?

The only time I've encountered a sign such as this is on the A6211 where it terminates on the A60 as part of the Nottingham Ring Road here. The traffic lights are a crossroads, with a small residential road opposite the A6211, across 6 lanes of the A60. I think it's entirely appropriate - I can see why how it would be easy to miss the small street opposite, or to presume the traffic light sequences are staggered.

To be honest I'd happily see a bit more of this stuff. The A1 Western Bypass in Gateshead is crying out for a 'use all three lanes' sign northbound after J67.

Shouldn't you be giving way to oncoming traffic anyway? Are people that crap at driving that they need to be told how to navigate a junction?

One could rephrase that: is the junction that crappily signed and designed that the sign is needed to highlight that there may be oncoming traffic.

When I used the junction I was a passenger so I might not have been paying attention, but I suppose I thought it was entirely possible and reasonable that a driver could miss that there was an opposite exit, or expect it to be on a different traffic cycle, yes.

[Chris Bertram]

I've seen another one in another part of Nottingham, here, that says "Left turners wait for green arrow". This is a signallised T-junction where your only options are left or right. I cannot comprehend the level of collective numptiness that requires such a sign.

There is, however, a pedestrian crossing signal if you turn left (but not if you turn right). If this is activated, then right-turning traffic will be given its green arrow ahead of left-turning traffic. This is rather unusual, and I suspect that there will have been instances of left-turners seeing the right-turners move off, and assuming that they, too, ought to be moving off. In that situation, the extra precautionary sign makes sense.

[Glen]

Shouldn't you be giving way to oncoming traffic anyway? Are people that crap at driving that they need to be told how to navigate a junction?

Given that so many junctions these days have all the turns on seperate phases with green arrows and that that approach has three lanes with seperate signals on the left turrn, I can see how it could be misinterpreted.
Especially as the minor road probably doesn't have much traffic leaving it, so drivers might not realise it is on green at the same time.

[FleetlinePhil]

I've seen another one in another part of Nottingham, here, that says "Left turners wait for green arrow". This is a signallised T-junction where your only options are left or right. I cannot comprehend the level of collective numptiness that requires such a sign.

There is, however, a pedestrian crossing signal if you turn left (but not if you turn right). If this is activated, then right-turning traffic will be given its green arrow ahead of left-turning traffic. This is rather unusual, and I suspect that there will have been instances of left-turners seeing the right-turners move off, and assuming that they, too, ought to be moving off. In that situation, the extra precautionary sign makes sense.

Apologies if I'm missing something obvious, but what is the reason for the stop line at the lights being set further back for the left turn than the right?

[IrishCrusader]

I've seen another one in another part of Nottingham, here, that says "Left turners wait for green arrow". This is a signallised T-junction where your only options are left or right. I cannot comprehend the level of collective numptiness that requires such a sign.

There is, however, a pedestrian crossing signal if you turn left (but not if you turn right). If this is activated, then right-turning traffic will be given its green arrow ahead of left-turning traffic. This is rather unusual, and I suspect that there will have been instances of left-turners seeing the right-turners move off, and assuming that they, too, ought to be moving off. In that situation, the extra precautionary sign makes sense.

Apologies if I'm missing something obvious, but what is the reason for the stop line at the lights being set further back for the left turn than the right?

To allow large vehicles to swing to the right before taking the left turn I would guess.
If it was level with the right turn line, and an inexperienced HGV driver (or a numpty in a large van they've hired), stopped at the line, they wouldn't get round the corner without demolishing that brick wall.

[FleetlinePhil]

There is, however, a pedestrian crossing signal if you turn left (but not if you turn right). If this is activated, then right-turning traffic will be given its green arrow ahead of left-turning traffic. This is rather unusual, and I suspect that there will have been instances of left-turners seeing the right-turners move off, and assuming that they, too, ought to be moving off. In that situation, the extra precautionary sign makes sense.

Apologies if I'm missing something obvious, but what is the reason for the stop line at the lights being set further back for the left turn than the right?

To allow large vehicles to swing to the right before taking the left turn I would guess.
If it was level with the right turn line, and an inexperienced HGV driver (or a numpty in a large van they've hired), stopped at the line, they wouldn't get round the corner without demolishing that brick wall.

Thanks, I appreciate your point that it does give a driver a few extra yards to assess the turn if they are unfamiliar with the area - I only ever drove buses where I knew where I was going, so was unlikely to get caught out in this way. Instinctively I thought having the right hand lane stopping further back would have helped keep traffic out of the way of large left turners more, hence my query. Does the left hand lane ever get green when the right is stopped? Presumably not, as there might be an issue with stationary traffic in the right hand lane being in the way.

[Chris Bertram]

Does the left hand lane ever get green when the right is stopped? Presumably not, as there might be an issue with stationary traffic in the right hand lane being in the way.

I think it might - the secondary signal for traffic on B684 towards Mapperley has a fourth lamp, presumably for a protected right-turn arrow, and it would make sense for a left-turn out of Porchester Road to be signalled at the same time.

[FleetlinePhil]

Does the left hand lane ever get green when the right is stopped? Presumably not, as there might be an issue with stationary traffic in the right hand lane being in the way.

I think it might - the secondary signal for traffic on B684 towards Mapperley has a fourth lamp, presumably for a protected right-turn arrow, and it would make sense for a left-turn out of Porchester Road to be signalled at the same time.

Indeed it does. From the gsv image, it looks a bit tight to swing left out of Porchester Road at the same time as two lanes of traffic are heading out of Nottingham, but that may just be a distortion. It's not a junction I've ever encountered in real life - I've never got to the pubs in that bit of Nottingham! I do notice that no bus routes seem to use the top of Porchester Road, although of course that may not be due to difficulties at the junction.

[Chris Bertram]

Does the left hand lane ever get green when the right is stopped? Presumably not, as there might be an issue with stationary traffic in the right hand lane being in the way.

I think it might - the secondary signal for traffic on B684 towards Mapperley has a fourth lamp, presumably for a protected right-turn arrow, and it would make sense for a left-turn out of Porchester Road to be signalled at the same time.

Indeed it does. From the gsv image, it looks a bit tight to swing left out of Porchester Road at the same time as two lanes of traffic are heading out of Nottingham, but that may just be a distortion. It's not a junction I've ever encountered in real life - I've never got to the pubs in that bit of Nottingham! I do notice that no bus routes seem to use the top of Porchester Road, although of course that may not be due to difficulties at the junction.

Porchester Road is actually quite a steep climb up from the Trent valley to Mapperley Plain, which is pretty much the highest land in Nottinghamshire. It's possible that buses are not routed that way for that reason.

I should say that I know that part of the world because my mother-in-law used to live that way, and my bro-in-law still does.

[Gareth]

HIghway 8 going out of Hong Kong Airport has them periodically along its route, for whatever reason...

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@22.29662 ... 6656?hl=en

[2 Sheds]

<t>I said on another thread that I would like to see this message displayed on motorway matrix gantries sometimes when there is nothing more serious to display. I was met with the 'don't waste signs telling people what they should already know' sort of responses. However it's all too clear that plenty of drivers don't know they need to keep left, or if they do their minds are not on their driving. I just don't buy the argument (which Highways England used when I asked them about this) that matrix signs are only used for warning of hazards which are not apparent to drivers. If this was the case we would never see 'spray, slow down', 'keep your distance', and numerous others</t>

[Bryn666]

<t>I said on another thread that I would like to see this message displayed on motorway matrix gantries sometimes when there is nothing more serious to display. I was met with the 'don't waste signs telling people what they should already know' sort of responses. However it's all too clear that plenty of drivers don't know they need to keep left, or if they do their minds are not on their driving. I just don't buy the argument (which Highways England used when I asked them about this) that matrix signs are only used for warning of hazards which are not apparent to drivers. If this was the case we would never see 'spray, slow down', 'keep your distance', and numerous others</t>

The then HA did use KEEP LEFT UNLESS OVERTAKING as a safety message. How soon they forget:

[2 Sheds]

Yes thanks for that. I knew I had seen it some years ago, I'm interested to know how you found a picture of it?

[FosseWay]

A Google image search on "keep left unless overtaking" (with quotation marks) yields a number of examples of UK VMSs with that message (though not specifically the one Bryn posted).

[Burns]

The A92 could have done with some keep left signage tonight. I'm driving in the left lane, gain on someone in the right so I move in behind them, they pull over, I pass then they indicate right and move back over again, despite the fact there's nothing to overtake.

[Bryn666]

Yes thanks for that. I knew I had seen it some years ago, I'm interested to know how you found a picture of it?

I took it.