Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

[rhyds]

It's actually quite straightforward, such signage is twice as big. Have you ever done (or read up) the calculations for how long drivers at speed take to absorb signage ?

What kept Gaelic of Scotland's destination signs for years was that claim. So the then Labour led Scottish Executive did a study. It made no noticable difference to road safety at all either way.

I can't see bilingual place names being a safety problem in any way. Warnings, instructions and restrictions may be a different matter.

My one criticism of Welsh language signing is that sign designers don't always stick to one translation of a given sign e.g. Bends for xxx yds, mainly due to some sign designers taking their own stab at the signs...

[exiled]

It's actually quite straightforward, such signage is twice as big. Have you ever done (or read up) the calculations for how long drivers at speed take to absorb signage ?

What kept Gaelic of Scotland's destination signs for years was that claim. So the then Labour led Scottish Executive did a study. It made no noticable difference to road safety at all either way.

I can't see bilingual place names being a safety problem in any way. Warnings, instructions and restrictions may be a different matter.

The only time bilingual signss are bad is when it they are the mixed through variety the various Scottish bodies use as welcome to signs.

'Failte gu
Welcome To
Inbhir Nus
Inverness'

All others, there is no noticeable effect what ever the combination as long as the division is clear, equal and consistent

[orudge]

I’ve never found it particularly confusing driving in Wales, even when the order of the languages changes between counties (which in time will disappear of course).

The one thing I’ve found problematic on the A55 at least is when a VMS is flashing between Welsh and English - often the English version has flashed off before I get a chance to read it (especially if there’s a lorry in lane 1 blocking the view). Not sure what the best solution would be - ideally both messages would be displayed at once, but that would require a double height VMS or two of them to be installed.

[DB617]

Barry from Bristol

It took me more brain cycles than it should have to work out you didn't mean Barry as in my home of Y Barri. (Barrybados as some tragically call it)

South Glamorgan, as it would have been at the time of the resurgence of Cymraeg, is an odd one for Welsh translations. It's hard to know whether a number of places (Y Barri, Y Rhws, Y Wig and Y Bont Faen) were originally named by their - or in honour of their - English speaking nobles and landlords, and had to be Welsh-ised with a lazy 'the' added to the translation, resulting in the awfully high number of villages and towns that translate rather unaesthetically to 'The something'.

As for St Athan, home of the former RAF aircraft maintenance facility, don't get me started on the translation 'Sain Tathan' (or, as Griffiths have typo'd on the A4226 rebuilding signage, Sain Tatham... )

I think it's fair to say that the more translated place names I find in the Glamorganshire area, the less I think many of the larger settlements originated from Welsh.

[Viator]

I think it would be more reasonable to ask the people who live there.

"Do you want our town to be known as 'Mold' or 'Yr Wyddgrug' ".

Whichever is the choice, just use that.

But since the inhabitants are also entitled to be asked

"Ydych chi am i'n dref gael ei galw'n Mold neu'r Wyddgrug?"

I think it's very likely that the two questions will produce two different answers.

[Viator]

South Glamorgan, as it would have been at the time of the resurgence of Cymraeg, is an odd one for Welsh translations. It's hard to know whether a number of places (Y Barri, Y Rhws, Y Wig and Y Bont Faen) were originally named by their - or in honour of their - English speaking nobles and landlords, and had to be Welsh-ised with a lazy 'the' added to the translation, resulting in the awfully high number of villages and towns that translate rather unaesthetically to 'The something'.

As for St Athan, home of the former RAF aircraft maintenance facility, don't get me started on the translation 'Sain Tathan' (or, as Griffiths have typo'd on the A4226 rebuilding signage, Sain Tatham... )

I think it's fair to say that the more translated place names I find in the Glamorganshire area, the less I think many of the larger settlements originated from Welsh.

English-speakers may have mislaid the first letter of his name, but what's wrong with remembering the full moniker of good old St Tathan?
http://www.synaxarion.org.uk/02WelshSai ... athan.html

As for those old nobles and landlords, they were French- rather than English-speaking when they founded their demesnes, and more often took their names from their territories than the other way around: the de Barry family for instance. As the chronicler Giraldus Cambrensis has it:

"Not far from Caerdyf is a small island situated near the shore of the Severn, called Barri, from St. Baroc [an Irish saint]. From hence a noble family, of the maritime parts of South Wales, who owned this island and the adjoining estates, received the name of de Barri."

A pheth arall / And another thing... What's so very "lazy" or "unaesthetic" about placenames that begin with the definite article? You must get very cross with those indolent Dutch and Spanish, what with their Den Haag and El Escorial -- while as for Le Havre and La Rochelle: My dear! Quickly-- the salts! Such ugly names!

[WHBM]

a Welshman living in Wales under a Welsh Government that I'm paying income taxes towards the upkeep of

The xenophobia here I can live with, of course. But when it comes to share of taxes, it's the the SE of England which substantially supports the rest of the country. And I'm likely paying more in taxes towards the upkeep of Wales than most of the others posting here.

[rhyds]

a Welshman living in Wales under a Welsh Government that I'm paying income taxes towards the upkeep of

The xenophobia here I can live with, of course. But when it comes to share of taxes, it's the the SE of England which substantially supports the rest of the country. And I'm likely paying more in taxes towards the upkeep of Wales than most of the others posting here.

Except of course the fact that ole Llundain village gets more transport spending per head than anywhere else in the whole UK!

As for xenophobia, being told that my language shouldn't be used on signs because idiots who can't drive could use it as an excuse when they crash seems pretty xenophobic to me.

[Steven]

a Welshman living in Wales under a Welsh Government that I'm paying income taxes towards the upkeep of

The xenophobia here I can live with, of course. But when it comes to share of taxes, it's the the SE of England which substantially supports the rest of the country. And I'm likely paying more in taxes towards the upkeep of Wales than most of the others posting here.

One side of this discussion wants a consistent, equal use of two official languages of a country within that country.

The other side wishes to destroy all traces of one of that languages, despite there being a non-negligible number of people who speak it as a first language, and it being compulsory schooling across that country until age 16.

Now who is Xenophobic?

[PhilC]

I am English, I live in England and do not profess to have any Welsh language skills. However, even I know that Araf means Slow, Ysgol means School and Ildiwch means Give Way although my attempts at pronunciation would probably make a Welsh speaker wince. As long as the meaning is conveyed quickly it doesn't really matter to me what language the sign is in. I have driven all over the continent without much knowledge of the local language and never really had a problem.

Where I do sometimes have a problem is with direction signs in an unfamiliar area. If I see two names on a sign I don't always know if it is pointing to two different places or one place with both its Welsh and English names. The first time I saw Abertawe on a signpost, in the late 1970s, it took me ages trying to find this mysterious place on a map. I like the system used in Scotland, where the Gaelic place names are shown in a different colour.

[AndyB]

The question that comes to mind is one which gets forgotten in the "Themuns want it so we're opposing it" and "Themuns will be annoyed if we get it so we must have it" discourse that passes for reasoned debate about the Irish language in NI.

And that is:

What harm is caused by bilingual signs?

It's worth pointing out that especially for ADS, the sign size doesn't necessarily double. ADSes only usually increases by the x-height of the forward destinations unless there is a large number of destinations to the left or right. I definitely support differentiation by colour, but for flip's sake, everyone, if you see Caergybi and Holyhead on a sign it doesn't take long to work out that Holyhead is in that direction, even if you have no idea whether Caergybi is a different place or not!

[FosseWay]

For me there's an obvious difference between using an exonym in another country and using a self-conscious mangling of a local name in the local area. Errors of the "Stanstead" or "Berkham(p)ste(a)d" type are just errors and aren't really the same thing.

It's entirely reasonable for people in England speaking English to refer to Rome and Moscow. I've previously questioned the political correctness that causes us to insist on Mumbai and Myanmar rather than Bombay and Burma, when we don't similarly insist on Roma and Moskvá (complete with very un-English word stress). "Cardiff" and "Swansea" come into the same category.

But Dolgelley, Aberdovey etc. are simply illiterate spellings of Welsh names - they are still Welsh names, just spelt wrong. Contrast Devil's Bridge / Pont a'r fynach, which mean different things ("Monk's Bridge" in Welsh - one wonders if Henry VIII had a hand in the English version). There's no more justification to spelling Aberdyfi as Aberdovey than there is to spell Leicester Lester or Leominster Lemster, or any of the other peculiar historical spellings the English countryside is blessed with.

I should add that Ireland suffers from this problem to a far greater extent than Wales does - all those "lough"s and "bally"s and "kill"s which I'm sure have been used, possibly subconsciously, to belittle the local language.

[AndyB]

Transliterations. Most placenames in Ireland are transliterations of some description - Dublin was Duibhlinn but lacked a promenade with illuminations and a famous tramway where Alan Bradley could be killed off in Coronation Street. All trying to get English speakers a way to say the placename.

Obvious exceptions include translations such as the various Newcastles and Newtown*s and plain English names such as Whiteabbey.

[FosseWay]

Dublin was Duibhlinn

Dublin is a strange one, because of course, as you note, the English name is a corruption of an Old Irish original which was appropriated first by the Vikings and only later by the Normans and English.

How old is the official Irish name, Baile Átha Cliath? Did it exist alongside Dublin ages ago (well before either independence or an organised cultural/political home rule movement)? Or is it a more recent invention that has been preferred in Irish to a variant of Dubh Linn or similar because "Dublin" has been appropriated by the British?

[AndyB]

To be entirely honest: pass!

Baile Atha Cliath has been the official Irish name since partition, and presumably preferred before then. I simply don't know more than what Google and Wikipedia can tell us.

[someone]

The English spelling of Aberdovey achieves the aim of getting people familiar with English (and not *just* the English themselves) to pronounce it the right way, while retaining the Welsh structure of the name. How to pronounce Welsh is not widely understood outside Wales (I am a bit of an exception there), and there is a minuscule chance of anyone from outside the UK knowing the rules. Cutting them a bit of slack seems not unreasonable in those terms.

What would you put on the road signs for Towcester to get people familiar with English (and not just the English themselves) to pronounce it the right way, while retaining the English structure of the name? Or for Belvoir? Leominster? Cholmondeley? Godmanchester?

I once met up with someone who was down in London for a business meeting, they said they were staying at a hotel in "south-wark." But that is the English for you, coming over here from England and not learning the language.

How to pronounce English is not widely understood inside England, and there is a minuscule chance of anyone from outside the U.K. knowing the rules. So, what are we going to put on those signs to cut them a reasonable bit of slack?

I've previously questioned the political correctness that causes us to insist on Mumbai and Myanmar rather than Bombay and Burma, when we don't similarly insist on Roma and Moskvá (complete with very un-English word stress).

Because in the former cases it was the English names to those places that were changed. And English is an official language in India, so they should be allowed to decide the English names for their places in one of their own languages.

Myanmar is more complicated because of the politics around the change meaning it is not universally supported domestically, and consequentially internationally.

As far as I am aware, neither Rome not Moscow have officially changed the English version of their names, which is why no one "insists on" using the Italian or Russian names, least of all Rome and Moscow. Unlike people instead "insisting on" using the English names of "Mynamar" and "Mumbai."

To refuse to call anyone, or anywhere, by their chosen name when they ask you to, instead insisting on using the name you, or your country, chose for them seems to be incredibly arrogant to me. But I would not even correct people from "toe-chester" when they claim to live in a toaster! It is their right to sound crazy, those silly "toe-cestrians"

[Chris Bertram]

The English spelling of Aberdovey achieves the aim of getting people familiar with English (and not *just* the English themselves) to pronounce it the right way, while retaining the Welsh structure of the name. How to pronounce Welsh is not widely understood outside Wales (I am a bit of an exception there), and there is a minuscule chance of anyone from outside the UK knowing the rules. Cutting them a bit of slack seems not unreasonable in those terms.

What would you put on the road signs for Towcester to get people familiar with English (and not just the English themselves) to pronounce it the right way, while retaining the English structure of the name? Or for Belvoir? Leominster? Cholmondeley? Godmanchester?

I once met up with someone who was down in London for a business meeting, they said they were staying at a hotel in "south-wark." But that is the English for you, coming over here from England and not learning the language.

How to pronounce English is not widely understood inside England, and there is a minuscule chance of anyone from outside the U.K. knowing the rules. So, what are we going to put on those signs to cut them a reasonable bit of slack?

English is known for having anomalies in the way it is pronounced, and doesn't claim phonetic spelling. So we accept that we have to learn about the oddities, and be prepared to be corrected when we get it wrong. But English is widely taught outside the UK, and not just in the USA and the "white Commonwealth". Where people get placenames wrong, it's on the same basis as local English speakers slipping up.

Welsh does, with justification, make the claim to being phonetic - but the letters have different values from their usual English equivalents. And Welsh is rarely taught outside Wales. So, if you take away the English spelling of Aberdyfi, be prepared for non-Welsh speakers to call it "Aberdiffy". Is that *really* improving matters?

[FosseWay]

As far as I am aware, neither Rome not Moscow have officially changed the English version of their names, which is why no one "insists on" using the Italian or Russian names, least of all Rome and Moscow. Unlike people instead "insisting on" using the English names of "Mynamar" and "Mumbai."

It isn't in the gift of the citizens of Rome or Moscow (or Italy and Russia) to define what anything is called in English or any other foreign language. This is precisely my point. We call Germany Germany because that is how the country's name has evolved in the English-speaking world, not because the Bundestag or any of its various legislative predecessors has passed a law saying that Germany shall be the official translation of Deutschland.

You're on safer ground arguing for a locally approved English version in countries where English is either official or at least widely used as a lingua franca, which category certainly includes India. So it's somewhat ironic that IME the majority of Indians when speaking English refer to Bombay, Calcutta and Madras. They use Mumbai, Kolkata and Chennai when speaking any of a number of local languages. In the same vein, I refer to my home city as Gothenburg when speaking English and Göteborg when speaking Swedish. I often wince when people self-consciously refer to Göteborg when speaking English, because more often than not they haven't researched how to pronounce it.

[Chris Bertram]

You're on safer ground arguing for a locally approved English version in countries where English is either official or at least widely used as a lingua franca, which category certainly includes India. So it's somewhat ironic that IME the majority of Indians when speaking English refer to Bombay, Calcutta and Madras. They use Mumbai, Kolkata and Chennai when speaking any of a number of local languages.

My Indian colleagues tend to use the "official" versions in a professional context, but the old versions outside. One exception is Bangalore, where the new "official" name of Bengaluru has not caught on - at least not yet.

[FosseWay]

Welsh does, with justification, make the claim to being phonetic - but the letters have different values from their usual English equivalents. And Welsh is rarely taught outside Wales. So, if you take away the English spelling of Aberdyfi, be prepared for non-Welsh speakers to call it "Aberdiffy". Is that *really* improving matters?

French *is* widely taught outside France, but I'd bet there are plenty of Anglophones who will refer to a species of big cat - quite possibly though inexplicably in the plural - when faced with the city of Lyon. This doesn't prompt the French to erect signs reading Leon or any other combination of letters that make it easier for non-French speakers to pronounce halfway correctly.

Also, "Aberdovey" works to an extent as an approximation to the Welsh pronunciation using English phonetic "rules" (insofar as such exist). It doesn't help any visitor who is familiar with neither English placenames nor the pronunciation of Welsh. If they follow the normal rules of pronunciation they'd say "Aber-dough-vee" with "dove" pronounced as the past tense of "dive" in American English rather than as the bird.

The point still stands that no country has a duty to respell its placenames to suit people from outside who speak other languages, and conversely has no say over how those outsiders choose to refer to that country's cities. Even in Wales, which I grant has a high proportion of mother-tongue English speakers, I would suggest that basic knowledge of Welsh pronunciation is widespread enough for it to be unnecessary. Which it evidently has been deemed to be, since these days you don't see official reference to "Aberdovey", "Conway" etc.