Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

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rhyds
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by rhyds »

vlad wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 20:14
rhyds wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 20:11
vlad wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 20:01

True, so how come Caernarfon isn't the English spelling?
Because there was a concerted effort to change "difficult" Welsh names (generally by railway companies) to more easily pronounced English "phonetic" spellings (phonetic if you're a drunk Brummie). Unfortunately these seem to have stuck over the years.
So you're saying that since I'm English I'm not allowed to call the place Caernarfon. No problem.
What I'm saying is that Caernarfon is the correct spelling. Using Carnarvon or something similar is like me spelling the capital city of England as Lyndyn because its easier.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by Big L »

rhyds wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 20:20
vlad wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 20:14
rhyds wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 20:11

Because there was a concerted effort to change "difficult" Welsh names (generally by railway companies) to more easily pronounced English "phonetic" spellings (phonetic if you're a drunk Brummie). Unfortunately these seem to have stuck over the years.
So you're saying that since I'm English I'm not allowed to call the place Caernarfon. No problem.
What I'm saying is that Caernarfon is the correct spelling. Using Carnarvon or something similar is like me spelling the capital city of England as Lyndyn because its easier.
Wouldn't you in fact spell it Llundain?
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rhyds
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by rhyds »

Big L wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 20:26
rhyds wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 20:20
vlad wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 20:14

So you're saying that since I'm English I'm not allowed to call the place Caernarfon. No problem.
What I'm saying is that Caernarfon is the correct spelling. Using Carnarvon or something similar is like me spelling the capital city of England as Lyndyn because its easier.
Wouldn't you in fact spell it Llundain?
Nope, Llundain is the Welsh name, Lyndyn is the English name spelled like it was a Welsh word. Carnarvon instead of Caernarfon isn't a different name, its an attempted English spelling of the Welsh name.

Here's another example:

Abertawe / Swansea: Same place, different names in Welsh and English

Aberdyfi / Aberdovey: Same place, same name, different spelling due to English people being unable to grasp that single "f" in Welsh sounds like a "v" without lots of help along the way
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by vlad »

rhyds wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 20:20
vlad wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 20:14
rhyds wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 20:11

Because there was a concerted effort to change "difficult" Welsh names (generally by railway companies) to more easily pronounced English "phonetic" spellings (phonetic if you're a drunk Brummie). Unfortunately these seem to have stuck over the years.
So you're saying that since I'm English I'm not allowed to call the place Caernarfon. No problem.
What I'm saying is that Caernarfon is the correct spelling. Using Carnarvon or something similar is like me spelling the capital city of England as Lyndyn because its easier.
My point (I'm not saying it was particularly well made) is that given spellings and ideas in general change, the English name for the town was Carnarvon, then became Caernarvon and is now Caernarfon. The final spelling is the only one I've ever used. However, it's been stated in this thread that that isn't the correct English spelling so it follows when writing in English I'm not allowed to use it.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by Vierwielen »

How many Sabristi, if they were in South Africa, would equate "Kaapstad" with "Cape Town"?

Here is an example of the worst of British verbosity on road signs coupled with bilingualism in Wales. What would a Polish HGV driver make of the sign? At least everybody would understand a "12 t" prohibition (even if there was a white sign with black text saying "Ac eithrio mynediad" followed by "Except for Access" below it).
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by Viator »

Vierwielen wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 22:16 Here is an example of the worst of British verbosity on road signs coupled with bilingualism in Wales. What would a Polish HGV driver make of the sign? At least everybody would understand a "12 t" prohibition (even if there was a white sign with black text saying "Ac eithrio mynediad" followed by "Except for Access" below it).
The sign pictured is not expressing a prohibition, though; it's giving information/advice.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by Berk »

Viator wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 14:32
Vierwielen wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 22:16 Here is an example of the worst of British verbosity on road signs coupled with bilingualism in Wales. What would a Polish HGV driver make of the sign? At least everybody would understand a "12 t" prohibition (even if there was a white sign with black text saying "Ac eithrio mynediad" followed by "Except for Access" below it).
The sign pictured is not expressing a prohibition, though; it's giving information/advice.
But one that is a strong recommendation, pretty much a prohibition, even if one step short.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by lefthandedspanner »

Vierwielen wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 22:16How many Sabristi, if they were in South Africa, would equate "Kaapstad" with "Cape Town"?
Or, for that matter, 's-Graavenhaage with The Hague in the Netherlands.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by Viator »

lefthandedspanner wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 17:42
Vierwielen wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 22:16How many Sabristi, if they were in South Africa, would equate "Kaapstad" with "Cape Town"?
Or, for that matter, 's-Graavenhaage with The Hague in the Netherlands.
I know...everybody hates a smartarse, but here goes anyway:

1) The correct spelling is 's-⁠Gravenhage
2) It's always signed as Den Haag
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by lefthandedspanner »

Viator wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 18:36
lefthandedspanner wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 17:42
Vierwielen wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 22:16How many Sabristi, if they were in South Africa, would equate "Kaapstad" with "Cape Town"?
Or, for that matter, 's-Graavenhaage with The Hague in the Netherlands.
I know...everybody hates a smartarse, but here goes anyway:

1) The correct spelling is 's-⁠Gravenhage
2) It's always signed as Den Haag
Oops - correction appreciated. In my defence it's been 14 years since I was last in the Netherlands, and my long-term memory is generally poor.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by Berk »

Viator wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 18:36
lefthandedspanner wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 17:42
Vierwielen wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 22:16How many Sabristi, if they were in South Africa, would equate "Kaapstad" with "Cape Town"?
Or, for that matter, 's-Graavenhaage with The Hague in the Netherlands.
I know...everybody hates a smartarse, but here goes anyway:

1) The correct spelling is 's-⁠Gravenhage
2) It's always signed as Den Haag
’s-Gravenhage is correct formal (but old/medieval Dutch).

Den Haag (usually with a lower letter on the article) is modern Dutch. It’s exactly the same with den Bosch/’s-Hertogenbosch.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by Vierwielen »

lefthandedspanner wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 17:42
Vierwielen wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 22:16How many Sabristi, if they were in South Africa, would equate "Kaapstad" with "Cape Town"?
Or, for that matter, 's-Graavenhaage with The Hague in the Netherlands.
I seem to recall that the Dutch use both "Den Haag" and "s'Gravenhage" on road signs.

PS My father was born in Den Haag.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by Chris Bertram »

Getting back to Wales, it occurred to me that the Welsh don't seem to like spa towns very much. Or at least the Welsh names for them don't seem to indicate their existence. Llandrindod Wells loses the "Wells" altogether with no translation (but retains mention of the church of the Holy Trinity), Llanwrtyd Wells is "Llanwrtud", again no indication of the wells (but yes to the church of St Gwrtud, now rededicated to St David), and Builth Wells is Llanfair-ym-Muallt, indicating the presence of a church of St Mary and pasture for oxen but not the healing waters. Any reason for this? What do the Welsh call Cheltenham Spa and Leamington Spa? Closer to the border, how about Tenbury Wells (there is a Welsh name for Leominster [Llanlieni], after all). What is the Welsh for the city of Wells, for that matter?
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by rhyds »

Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:13 Getting back to Wales, it occurred to me that the Welsh don't seem to like spa towns very much. Or at least the Welsh names for them don't seem to indicate their existence. Llandrindod Wells loses the "Wells" altogether with no translation (but retains mention of the church of the Holy Trinity), Llanwrtyd Wells is "Llanwrtud", again no indication of the wells (but yes to the church of St Gwrtud, now rededicated to St David), and Builth Wells is Llanfair-ym-Muallt, indicating the presence of a church of St Mary and pasture for oxen but not the healing waters. Any reason for this? What do the Welsh call Cheltenham Spa and Leamington Spa? Closer to the border, how about Tenbury Wells (there is a Welsh name for Leominster [Llanlieni], after all). What is the Welsh for the city of Wells, for that matter?
The "wells" were generally Victorian/Georgian "developments" to encourage tourism, so not surprisingly the locals never really embraced them from a naming perspective, ancient wells however are referred to, as in Treffynon (Holywell). For the locals it wasn't the wells that were important, but the churches.

As for Tenbury/Cheltenham/Leamington I personally don't know of any Welsh names for these, as most Welsh names for English towns and cities are generally based around places that were important from a trading (wool/sheep), educational (Rhydychen/Caergrawnt) or religious perspective over many centuries. Once you get in to the 18th/19th century "newcomer" towns the English name was generally used, so you have Amwythig for Shrewsbury, but nothing for Ironbridge.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by jiunaughten »

There are numerous signs in and around Abergavenny, even ones that look recent-ish, that are only in English. For example:

https://www.google.com.br/maps/@51.8178 ... bfov%3D100

https://www.google.com.br/maps/@51.8251 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com.br/maps/@51.8240 ... 312!8i6656

https://www.google.com.br/maps/@51.8039 ... 384!8i8192 The sign on the left hand side of the road does have the welsh on, but in the sunlight of that picture it is unreadably faded. It was still there when I went down there a week or so ago as well.

https://www.google.com.br/maps/@51.8180 ... 384!8i8192
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by crazyknightsfan »

jiunaughten wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 17:17 There are numerous signs in and around Abergavenny, even ones that look recent-ish, that are only in English. For example:

https://www.google.com.br/maps/@51.8178 ... bfov%3D100

https://www.google.com.br/maps/@51.8251 ... 384!8i8192

https://www.google.com.br/maps/@51.8240 ... 312!8i6656

https://www.google.com.br/maps/@51.8039 ... 384!8i8192 The sign on the left hand side of the road does have the welsh on, but in the sunlight of that picture it is unreadably faded. It was still there when I went down there a week or so ago as well.

https://www.google.com.br/maps/@51.8180 ... 384!8i8192
Interesting!
So this is one of the Welsh counties that is mostly English-speaking?
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by Viator »

crazyknightsfan wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2019 03:13 So this is one of the Welsh counties that is mostly English-speaking?
It is, but then that no longer makes any difference.

Regulations that came into force in 2016 mandate that all [new] signs be in Welsh first, with existing "English-priority" signage (in those areas where the local authority had previously applied such a policy) being replaced whenever they otherwise would need to be (because of life expiry or altered road conditions) by signs displaying the Welsh text first.

The Welsh Government states in its Welsh Language Standards, Article 119, page 17, that
  • Where a sign contains the Welsh language as well as the English language, the Welsh language text must be positioned so as to be read first and that
  • Replacement signage on Welsh Government trunk roads will be taken forward as part of a general rolling programme of renewals with priority given to main routes.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by ellandback »

I would be very grateful if one of the Welsh speakers who have contributed to this thread could kindly provide me with a phonetic pronunciation of Ynys Gybi.

In my simple English head it reads as "Innis Guy-be", but I'm conscious that Ys are often pronounced us Us and Gs as Cs and wondering if it's actually a bit more like "Unnus Cub-be"?

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by roadtester »

Interesting news story on the BBC - a petition calling for a ban on changing Welsh town names to English because it is eroding Welsh identity:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53163702

I was slightly surprised by the apparent strength of feeling on this. I can see that historically there would have been a long period when anglicisation of place names was on the march, and keepers of the flame of Welsh identity would have had plenty to worry about. But my impression was that the tide was if anything being reversed a bit in recent decades with efforts to promote the language and the use of dual language signs and so on. Surely now more people would be e.g. aware that the Welsh name for Swansea is Abertawe than in, say, the fifties, given the appearance of both names on modern road signs.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by Worcestershire Wolf »

roadtester wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 17:26 Interesting news story on the BBC - a petition calling for a ban on changing Welsh town names to English because it is eroding Welsh identity:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53163702

I was slightly surprised by the apparent strength of feeling on this. I can see that historically there would have been a long period when anglicisation of place names was on the march, and keepers of the flame of Welsh identity would have had plenty to worry about. But my impression was that the tide was if anything being reversed a bit in recent decades with efforts to promote the language and the use of dual language signs and so on. Surely now more people would be e.g. aware that the Welsh name for Swansea is Abertawe than in, say, the fifties, given the appearance of both names on modern road signs.
The petition is actually to stop people changing house names if you click through to it from the BBC page. So it doesn't have anything to do with traffic signage or town names.
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