Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

[Chris Bertram]

The point still stands that no country has a duty to respell its placenames to suit people from outside who speak other languages, and conversely has no say over how those outsiders choose to refer to that country's cities. Even in Wales, which I grant has a high proportion of mother-tongue English speakers, I would suggest that basic knowledge of Welsh pronunciation is widespread enough for it to be unnecessary. Which it evidently has been deemed to be, since these days you don't see official reference to "Aberdovey", "Conway" etc.

Conway, no. Aberdovey, yes, it's still on the road signs and on the station nameplate.

Oh, and I'm old enough to remember when Tywyn was also known as Towyn. There is a town retaining the latter spelling on the coast in the Conwy district, plus a couple of hamlets in Gwynedd, but perhaps they were always spelt that way in Welsh?

[Euan]

The best solution to the language problem would probably be to sign places in both English and Welsh regardless of the strength of the Welsh language, that way everyone is happy. Obviously the bilingual signage will mean more to people where the language is strongest, as in parts of Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion and Gwynedd. Any monolingual signs in Wales will certainly not be up to date as current guidelines advise that both languages are signed, although the language that appears on the top may differ depending on local dominance.

As has already been mentioned, the two languages must be clearly distinguished on the signs so that there is no confusion. Gaelic place names are written in orange on primary route signs in the Highlands of Scotland while English place names are still the usual white. For example, "Oban" will be written in white and "an t-Oban" will be written in orange on a green sign. Likewise in Ireland, English place names are written in uppercase and and in Irish they are written in lowercase italics. So on direction signage the words "CORK" and "Corcaigh" will appear, just as an example.

Personally I don't know very much Welsh, probably the only Welsh word that I know is "afon" for "river". Although there are many place names in Wales starting with "Aber-", which also features in Scotland where you have places like Aberdeen, Aberchirder, Aberfeldy and Aberbrothock (perhaps better known as Arbroath).

[Chris Bertram]

The best solution to the language problem would probably be to sign places in both English and Welsh regardless of the strength of the Welsh language, that way everyone is happy. Obviously the bilingual signage will mean more to people where the language is strongest, as in parts of Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion and Gwynedd. Any monolingual signs in Wales will certainly not be up to date as current guidelines advise that both languages are signed, although the language that appears on the top may differ depending on local dominance.

You'll be relieved to know that bilingual signage is already mandated across Wales. Any remaining English-only signs are strictly legacy issue, and should be replaced over time (there are few left as it it). As for which comes first, this used to be the decision of the democratically-elected local councils, but the Welsh government has co-opted this decision for itself alone now, and decided to put the national minority language (Welsh) above the majority language (English). While nobody now argues for a return to English-only signage, this could prompt a response of "go figure".

[Steven]

While nobody now argues for a return to English-only signage

Well, nobody sensible anyway. There are a few English xenophobes who would appear to argue just that it would seem.

[Chris Bertram]

While nobody now argues for a return to English-only signage

Well, nobody sensible anyway. There are a few English xenophobes who would appear to argue just that it would seem.

Way back in the thread, I think somebody suggested that temporary works signage *might* be exempt from dual-language requirements (which would facilitate quick installation of English-only signs where bilingual ones are unavailable, with proper replacement expected in due course). I haven't seen anyone advocating the removal of existing permanent bilingual signs. The only people still really favouring English-only signs would be the Welsh local councils that drag their heels over replacing them.

[Viator]

The question that comes to mind is one which gets forgotten in the "Themuns want it so we're opposing it" and "Themuns will be annoyed if we get it so we must have it" discourse that passes for reasoned debate about the Irish language in NI.

And that is:

What harm is caused by bilingual signs?

It's worth pointing out that especially for ADS, the sign size doesn't necessarily double. ADSes only usually increases by the x-height of the forward destinations unless there is a large number of destinations to the left or right. I definitely support differentiation by colour, but for flip's sake, everyone, if you see Caergybi and Holyhead on a sign it doesn't take long to work out that Holyhead is in that direction, even if you have no idea whether Caergybi is a different place or not!

In the absence, in the SABRE forums, of a "like button" (which IMHO would be very labour-saving!), may I just say LIKE.

[Viator]

While nobody now argues for a return to English-only signage

Well, nobody sensible anyway. There are a few English xenophobes who would appear to argue just that it would seem.

Way back in the thread, I think somebody suggested that temporary works signage *might* be exempt from dual-language requirements (which would facilitate quick installation of English-only signs where bilingual ones are unavailable, with proper replacement expected in due course). I haven't seen anyone advocating the removal of existing permanent bilingual signs. The only people still really favouring English-only signs would be the Welsh local councils that drag their heels over replacing them.

Chris, I agree -- and I revise my (obviously over-hasty) previous opinion of your sentiments in regard to bilingual signage in Wales!

In my observation, roadworks contractors are far ahead of many local authorities not only in providing bilingual signage but in complying with the Welsh-first rule. OK: the installers of temporary signs are always going to be ahead of the people responsible for what is inevitably going to be seen as longer-lasting signage, but "well done" all the same. I can't remember when was the last time I saw temporary signage that was inconsistent with the new provisions.

[Chris Bertram]

Well, nobody sensible anyway. There are a few English xenophobes who would appear to argue just that it would seem.

Way back in the thread, I think somebody suggested that temporary works signage *might* be exempt from dual-language requirements (which would facilitate quick installation of English-only signs where bilingual ones are unavailable, with proper replacement expected in due course). I haven't seen anyone advocating the removal of existing permanent bilingual signs. The only people still really favouring English-only signs would be the Welsh local councils that drag their heels over replacing them.

Chris, I agree -- and I revise my (obviously over-hasty) previous opinion of your sentiments in regard to bilingual signage in Wales!

In my observation, roadworks contractors are far ahead of many local authorities not only in providing bilingual signage but in complying with the Welsh-first rule. OK: the installers of temporary signs are always going to be ahead of the people responsible for what is inevitably going to be seen as longer-lasting signage, but "well done" all the same. I can't remember when was the last time I saw temporary signage that was inconsistent with the new provisions.

You may have been lucky. Signs carried around on the back of pickups by roadworks contractors from one depot to another can easily end up in the wrong place. A contractor close to the border might easily run out of bilingual signs, but need to set up a job in a hurry. What to do - delay the start of the job until the right signs are available, or put out the signs you have now? You tell me what you think. OK, it's an edge case, but not impossible.

And I have seen bilingual signs in England. And not close to the border either, this was in Warwick! Strictly speaking, it was illegal, but it would be stupid to ignore it.

[crazyknightsfan]

In the same vein, I refer to my home city as Gothenburg when speaking English and Göteborg when speaking Swedish. I often wince when people self-consciously refer to Göteborg when speaking English, because more often than not they haven't researched how to pronounce it.

TIL: Yurter-borey is how to pronounce Gothenburg
Haven't managed to get my head around most of the Welsh yet though - would help if Wiki articles had the audio files of pronunciations...

[FosseWay]

In the same vein, I refer to my home city as Gothenburg when speaking English and Göteborg when speaking Swedish. I often wince when people self-consciously refer to Göteborg when speaking English, because more often than not they haven't researched how to pronounce it.

TIL: Yurter-borey is how to pronounce Gothenburg

Yes, not a bad approximation using English spelling. Put the stress on the "bor" rather than the "yurt" and you're even closer.

Haven't managed to get my head around most of the Welsh yet though - would help if Wiki articles had the audio files of pronunciations...

I don't have too much of a problem with Welsh, despite knowing little of the language beyond placename elements and what you see on road signs, because the relationship between what's written and how it's pronounced is very strong (stronger than for Swedish, for example). Once you've got your head round the letters/combinations that are non-intuitive for English speakers, you don't have to worry about it sometimes being different just because. Irish pronunciation on the other hand - where my level of ignorance is similar - I find very hard to predict because to my ear it seems that the same combination of letters, usually involving H, is pronounced in different ways in different words.

[nowster]

A former colleague said that as a kid he had fond memories of playing on Traeth Beach.

I also remember hearing of a friend of the family on Anglesey asking for two bus tickets to Almwich, and getting forcibly corrected that it was Amlwch (am-looCH).

[Chris Bertram]

It's worth pointing out that especially for ADS, the sign size doesn't necessarily double. ADSes only usually increases by the x-height of the forward destinations unless there is a large number of destinations to the left or right. I definitely support differentiation by colour, but for flip's sake, everyone, if you see Caergybi and Holyhead on a sign it doesn't take long to work out that Holyhead is in that direction, even if you have no idea whether Caergybi is a different place or not!

"Double" is an exaggeration, but signs very often have to get bigger. Distance/End plates have the two languages one on top of the other. Red signs such as "ROAD CLOSED" either increase in size to accommodate "FFORDD AR GAU" or the text shrinks, which may not be a safety benefit. For direction and route confirmation signs, the problem is exacerbated by the need to pair up the alternative English/Welsh names, and leave a space before the next pair so it is clear how the pairings work. The advance map sign on A465 WB for the Gilwern roundabout is/was huuuuge due to the number of destinations on it, most of which had two names. Not saying "don't do it", but it has to be accepted as a price to be paid.

[exiled]

In the same vein, I refer to my home city as Gothenburg when speaking English and Göteborg when speaking Swedish. I often wince when people self-consciously refer to Göteborg when speaking English, because more often than not they haven't researched how to pronounce it.

TIL: Yurter-borey is how to pronounce Gothenburg

Yes, not a bad approximation using English spelling. Put the stress on the "bor" rather than the "yurt" and you're even closer.

Haven't managed to get my head around most of the Welsh yet though - would help if Wiki articles had the audio files of pronunciations...

I don't have too much of a problem with Welsh, despite knowing little of the language beyond placename elements and what you see on road signs, because the relationship between what's written and how it's pronounced is very strong (stronger than for Swedish, for example). Once you've got your head round the letters/combinations that are non-intuitive for English speakers, you don't have to worry about it sometimes being different just because. Irish pronunciation on the other hand - where my level of ignorance is similar - I find very hard to predict because to my ear it seems that the same combination of letters, usually involving H, is pronounced in different ways in different words.

There is the old joke that Irish and Gaelic have orthography, grammar and pronunciation designed by different committees who refuse to talk to each other.

Then there is Danish.

[exiled]

It's worth pointing out that especially for ADS, the sign size doesn't necessarily double. ADSes only usually increases by the x-height of the forward destinations unless there is a large number of destinations to the left or right. I definitely support differentiation by colour, but for flip's sake, everyone, if you see Caergybi and Holyhead on a sign it doesn't take long to work out that Holyhead is in that direction, even if you have no idea whether Caergybi is a different place or not!

"Double" is an exaggeration, but signs very often have to get bigger. Distance/End plates have the two languages one on top of the other. Red signs such as "ROAD CLOSED" either increase in size to accommodate "FFORDD AR GAU" or the text shrinks, which may not be a safety benefit. For direction and route confirmation signs, the problem is exacerbated by the need to pair up the alternative English/Welsh names, and leave a space before the next pair so it is clear how the pairings work. The advance map sign on A465 WB for the Gilwern roundabout is/was huuuuge due to the number of destinations on it, most of which had two names. Not saying "don't do it", but it has to be accepted as a price to be paid.

One advantage of bilingual signs is they actually can be smaller as well, by lateral thinking getting either the same word in both languages or something removing verbiage altogether.

Canada uses 'MAXIMUM' on its speed limit signs as it is the same in English and French. Remove the words 'Ildwych and Give Way' and it would still be a Give Way sign.

[Chris Bertram]

One advantage of bilingual signs is they actually can be smaller as well, by lateral thinking getting either the same word in both languages or something removing verbiage altogether.

Canada uses 'MAXIMUM' on its speed limit signs as it is the same in English and French. Remove the words 'Ildwych and Give Way' and it would still be a Give Way sign.

Removing verbiage, to be fair, is hardly making a sign bilingual! That said, I'm all in favour of replacing words with symbols - "yds" instead of "yards", "m" instead of "miles". Even better, go metric and then anyone from anywhere in the world will recognise the symbols "m" and "km" for distance and height/width, "t" for weight.

But that doesn't deal with dual placenames and necessarily verbose signs such as those needed for road closures, diversions, advance warnings of restrictions and so on.

[FosseWay]

Then there is Danish.

"Danish isn't a language; it is a throat complaint."

-- Swedish saying.

Written Danish is, however, perfectly intelligible to someone who knows Swedish or Norwegian, and vice versa.

[nowster]

Removing verbiage, to be fair, is hardly making a sign bilingual! That said, I'm all in favour of replacing words with symbols - "yds" instead of "yards", "m" instead of "miles".

"m" works, as it's "milltir"; "yds" doesn't as the Welsh equivalent is "llath".

[DB617]

It's worth pointing out that especially for ADS, the sign size doesn't necessarily double. ADSes only usually increases by the x-height of the forward destinations unless there is a large number of destinations to the left or right. I definitely support differentiation by colour, but for flip's sake, everyone, if you see Caergybi and Holyhead on a sign it doesn't take long to work out that Holyhead is in that direction, even if you have no idea whether Caergybi is a different place or not!

"Double" is an exaggeration, but signs very often have to get bigger. Distance/End plates have the two languages one on top of the other. Red signs such as "ROAD CLOSED" either increase in size to accommodate "FFORDD AR GAU" or the text shrinks, which may not be a safety benefit. For direction and route confirmation signs, the problem is exacerbated by the need to pair up the alternative English/Welsh names, and leave a space before the next pair so it is clear how the pairings work. The advance map sign on A465 WB for the Gilwern roundabout is/was huuuuge due to the number of destinations on it, most of which had two names. Not saying "don't do it", but it has to be accepted as a price to be paid.

One advantage of bilingual signs is they actually can be smaller as well, by lateral thinking getting either the same word in both languages or something removing verbiage altogether.

That definitely works with single message signs but it's a bit sketchy on direction signs. In a completely fictional example sign reading:

Lllanelli
Sancler
St Clears

...Leaves you just for a second wondering what's going on as there appear to be two Welsh or English destinations and only one written in Welsh. Equally, I still strongly dislike the tendency for shared place names like 'Castell Caerfili Castle'. Not only is it not quite bilingual but not quite monolingual either, the brain has a tendency to just partially translate it as 'Castle Caerphilly Castle' and the repetition is jarring. Of course these are mainly aesthetic concerns as the function is still there for anyone but the most clueless tourist.

And another thing... almost all the SWTRA M4 VMS are mono-lingual in alternating languages. Somehow they have failed to design MS4 configurations that actually give equal information to Welsh and English speakers. The preaching 'Don't drink and drive' messages I'm not so bothered about but signs warning of a closure are always set in Welsh first, followed by the later VMS, usually closer to the decision point, being in English. This is particularly obvious in the tight quarters of the Newport Bypass. Of course, it neatly satisfies the Welsh first requirement of the WLA but it reduces the quality of information delivery. It does force you to learn some token Welsh though - Ar Gau, etc etc. Maybe that was the intention.

The earlier VMS fitted on the 1990s PoW Bridge section seem to rarely see use on the Welsh side these days - those are almost impossible to achieve compliance with the WLA since they were only ever intended to deliver messages in one language. Of course, they lack any accented characters. I can see them being replaced with MS4 as part of the elusive Newport Southern Bypass works. Conversely, the VMS approaching the bridge on the Bristol side are usually lit when I pass in daytime hours.

[Chris Bertram]

Removing verbiage, to be fair, is hardly making a sign bilingual! That said, I'm all in favour of replacing words with symbols - "yds" instead of "yards", "m" instead of "miles".

"m" works, as it's "milltir"; "yds" doesn't as the Welsh equivalent is "llath".

They are symbols, not abbreviations. "WC" is used around the world as a symbol for a public toilet, even in countries whose languages don't use those letters. It may orginally have stood for "water closet" but it has transcended that limitation. Yds does the same for yards/llath. Just as our symbol for the pound avoirdupois is "lb", from the Latin "librum".

[Chris Bertram]

In a completely fictional example sign reading:

Lllanelli
Sancler
St Clears

...Leaves you just for a second wondering what's going on as there appear to be two Welsh or English destinations and only one written in Welsh.

In that example, it would be spaced to be clear:

Llanelli

Sanclêr
St Clears

... though the space between the first two would not be a full line space. It's not quite double the requirement of just two names, but it is quite a premium. There seems to be a reluctance to use "/" to separate the Welsh and English names, not sure why in cases where both names are short.