Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

[rhyds]

In other news, it seems that the BBC (or at least Radio 4 news) has given up on even trying to pronounce Welsh names. There's currently a coroner's inquest going on in to the death of a former Welsh Government minister at Rhuthun/Ruthin. A simple, straightforward to pronounce town (if you can't roll your Rs properly then "Riffin" will do). However R4 News were reporting from "North Wales", which is meaningless. If they can't work out how to pronounce Rhuthun then why not just call the pronunciation department, and if that doesn't exist then just pick up the phone to BBC Cymru Wales! (apparently what ITN used to do was just call up HTV's on duty announcer if they needed a clarification).

You're making a bit of an assumption that whoever wrote the script omitted the name "Ruthin"/"Rhuthun" (whichever you prefer) because they saw a name they couldn't pronounce and decided it was too difficult. That seems a bit unlikely to me. The news is full of difficult names from all around the world, and R4 newsreaders in particular seem to take gleeful pride in tackling them.

It would seem more likely that, given the town involved has a population of about 5,000 and is not well known, and the specific location is not particularly relevant to understanding the story, a judgement was made that "North Wales" was the most specific geographical information that was needed. I certainly wouldn't know where Ruthin is - I have a pretty good knowledge of UK geography but I'm not convinced I've even heard of it before - but "North Wales" tells me where in the UK the event is happening.

It feels a bit like you're getting cross about something you've assumed to be the case, and to me that explanation doesn't sound very likely.

It was a hearing at Rhuthun Coroner's court, so the location was rather important. The problem is that national broadcasters (especially the BBC) think that Wales is somewhere with only three locations in it (North, South West) and that describing places in any more detail is somehow beneath them.

[Berk]

It’s borne out even more in the weather forecast. Terms like “in the North/the South/ the West” should all have Britain added to them.

Because they certainly don’t cover what’s happening in England (or Wales), just the extremes at the edges. Of course Scotland has more unsettled/stormy/snowy weather, but can’t extrapolate that across the whole country.

[Brigham]

I'm not sure how signmaking worked back in the 1970s (as opposed to modern CAD systems) but it must be remembered that the original bilingual signage dates from back then, therefore it may have been deemed too difficult to provide colour differentiation back then and that's how the standard was set at the time.

Has the need for bilingual signage increased or decreased since the 1970s? How many people in Wales actually speak Welsh? More significantly, how many of those ONLY speak Welsh?
We may be catering for a small number of people, possibly all within a specific geographical area.

[nowster]

Has the need for bilingual signage increased or decreased since the 1970s? How many people in Wales actually speak Welsh? More significantly, how many of those ONLY speak Welsh?

It is the first language of many, especially in the West and North West. That matters.

This is in contrast with Cornish, which died and has been reconstructed in the last 40 years.

[Chris Bertram]

I'm not sure how signmaking worked back in the 1970s (as opposed to modern CAD systems) but it must be remembered that the original bilingual signage dates from back then, therefore it may have been deemed too difficult to provide colour differentiation back then and that's how the standard was set at the time.

Has the need for bilingual signage increased or decreased since the 1970s? How many people in Wales actually speak Welsh? More significantly, how many of those ONLY speak Welsh?
We may be catering for a small number of people, possibly all within a specific geographical area.

This is Wales. It has been determined that Welsh and English will coexist on signage, regardless of local need, so Monmouthshire (overwhelmingly English-speaking, Welsh not widely understood) gets the same treatment as Gwynedd (mostly Welsh-speaking, though everyone can also speak English). Monoglot Welsh-speakers are almost unknown, though people who rarely have to use English are more common. Welsh has been pushed to some degree in the education system, and is compulsorily taught in the maintained sector up to a particular age (14? 16?), and it is claimed that levels of understanding of the language are increasing nationwide as a result. Despite this, the proportion of people able to speak Welsh *declined* between the 2001 and 2011 censuses in almost all council areas. If these stats are to be believed, then only Gwynedd and the Isle of Anglesey can now claim a majority of people able to speak Welsh, with Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire having dipped below 50% in that 10-year period. What the 2021 census will say we will await with interest.

[Brigham]

So it's more a cultural matter, rather than simple communications.
That's good. I'm all for it.

[PhilC]

I'm not sure how signmaking worked back in the 1970s (as opposed to modern CAD systems) but it must be remembered that the original bilingual signage dates from back then, therefore it may have been deemed too difficult to provide colour differentiation back then and that's how the standard was set at the time.

I'm not sure exactly how the signs were made, but there was certainly scope for yellow and white characters on primary route signs. As you say, that was the standard at the time.

[rhyds]

So it's more a cultural matter, rather than simple communications.
That's good. I'm all for it.

As I've mentioned before, road signs are government communications in the same way as tax forms and the like, and I expect my government to speak my language.

[Chris Bertram]

So it's more a cultural matter, rather than simple communications.
That's good. I'm all for it.

As I've mentioned before, road signs are government communications in the same way as tax forms and the like, and I expect my government to speak my language.

We seem to take the view that this only applies to "indigenous" languages, and not all of those. Cornish has no official status in Cornwall, let alone England. Gaelic has had limited recognition in Scotland, and has to compete with Scots for the status of most favoured minority language. Any accommodation for speakers of Asian and other European languages is strictly discretionary. Yet they can all claim the national government as "their" government if they are entitled to vote for it and pay taxes for its ongoing functioning. Should we put their languages on signs and forms as well?

[Steven]

None of the above are official languages with the same legal status as Welsh within Wales, so the Asian language thing is entirely a red herring.

[Chris Bertram]

None of the above are official languages with the same legal status as Welsh within Wales, so the Asian language thing is entirely a red herring.

Not really. I'm pointing out that the "it's my government" argument is not one that carries a huge amount of weight. The Welsh assembly could vote tomorrow to derecognise Welsh as an official language (don't worry, it's not going to), and rhyds would have no comeback on that before the next election, but it would still be "his" government nonetheless.

[Bryn666]

I really don't get why people get upset about it.

If the Welsh want their signs to be in both Welsh and English then it is purely a matter for Wales. My main concern is that the signs should be legible; which is not always the case.

[J N Winkler]

From the standpoint of legibility, my biggest concern has to do with abandoning the system of designating local authority areas as Welsh-priority and English-priority. The original research into bilingual signing showed that sign reading time went up when the language that was less familiar to the driver appeared first in bilingual name pairs, so allowing areas that were almost totally English-speaking to have signs with English first was a way to affirm the Welsh language while minimizing the effects on traffic.

[vlad]

So it's more a cultural matter, rather than simple communications.
That's good. I'm all for it.

If languages were merely for communication everyone would speak English (or Spanish, Arabic, Esperanto, Quenya, etc.). Of course there's way more to it.

[jimboLL]

I really don't get why people get upset about it.

If the Welsh want their signs to be in both Welsh and English then it is purely a matter for Wales. My main concern is that the signs should be legible; which is not always the case.

I'm not sure whether any reliable polling has ever been carried out as to what "the Welsh" (a phrase the Welsh Assembly Government is keen to avoid using BTW, preferring "people of Wales" or similar) feel about this matter, but I am aware of a current of sentiment in the anglophone southern regions that views the Welsh Language Acts and associated measures as costly job creation schemes.

In case anyone reading this has children looking at subject choices and career prospects, fluency in Welsh coupled to a decent degree would make them a shoo-in for a secure public sector job with tidy pension entitlement. If that's what you/they are after.

[Chris Bertram]

... "the Welsh" (a phrase the Welsh Assembly Government is keen to avoid using BTW, preferring "people of Wales" or similar) ...

Wisely, I think. Not all the residents of Wales identify as Welsh, and many Welsh people live outside Wales. The voting franchise for the Welsh assembly applies to residents of Wales, and there is no provision for Welsh people elsewhere to vote in those elections.

As for polling on the subject, I rather doubt that any such poll will ever be carried out officially. The results just might be too hot to handle.

[rhyds]

I really don't get why people get upset about it.

If the Welsh want their signs to be in both Welsh and English then it is purely a matter for Wales. My main concern is that the signs should be legible; which is not always the case.

I'm not sure whether any reliable polling has ever been carried out as to what "the Welsh" (a phrase the Welsh Assembly Government is keen to avoid using BTW, preferring "people of Wales" or similar) feel about this matter, but I am aware of a current of sentiment in the anglophone southern regions that views the Welsh Language Acts and associated measures as costly job creation schemes.

In case anyone reading this has children looking at subject choices and career prospects, fluency in Welsh coupled to a decent degree would make them a shoo-in for a secure public sector job with tidy pension entitlement. If that's what you/they are after.

Jealous are we? Welsh can be learnt pretty easily, and there are lots of courses available, especially for adults. This idea that Welsh is a burden on the taxpayer is a total myth, especially when private businesses find that using Welsh attracts customers

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/bu ... h-15470885

[rhyds]

None of the above are official languages with the same legal status as Welsh within Wales, so the Asian language thing is entirely a red herring.

Not really. I'm pointing out that the "it's my government" argument is not one that carries a huge amount of weight. The Welsh assembly could vote tomorrow to derecognise Welsh as an official language (don't worry, it's not going to), and rhyds would have no comeback on that before the next election, but it would still be "his" government nonetheless.

As a popular T-shirt slogan here says:

"This is Wales. We speak Welsh. Get over it."

[rhyds]

From the standpoint of legibility, my biggest concern has to do with abandoning the system of designating local authority areas as Welsh-priority and English-priority. The original research into bilingual signing showed that sign reading time went up when the language that was less familiar to the driver appeared first in bilingual name pairs, so allowing areas that were almost totally English-speaking to have signs with English first was a way to affirm the Welsh language while minimizing the effects on traffic.

The problem there is that you lose standardisation. Better to standardise one way (which happens to be Welsh then English) for consistency. This has now happened and will slowly start to sort itself out over the next few years as long as lazy sign designers don't just copy what was there before!

[jimboLL]

I really don't get why people get upset about it.

If the Welsh want their signs to be in both Welsh and English then it is purely a matter for Wales. My main concern is that the signs should be legible; which is not always the case.

I'm not sure whether any reliable polling has ever been carried out as to what "the Welsh" (a phrase the Welsh Assembly Government is keen to avoid using BTW, preferring "people of Wales" or similar) feel about this matter, but I am aware of a current of sentiment in the anglophone southern regions that views the Welsh Language Acts and associated measures as costly job creation schemes.

In case anyone reading this has children looking at subject choices and career prospects, fluency in Welsh coupled to a decent degree would make them a shoo-in for a secure public sector job with tidy pension entitlement. If that's what you/they are after.

Jealous are we? Welsh can be learnt pretty easily, and there are lots of courses available, especially for adults. This idea that Welsh is a burden on the taxpayer is a total myth, especially when private businesses find that using Welsh attracts customers

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/bu ... h-15470885

Not jealous, just an observation. Depends what any individu wants to do in life.

Daily Post is a Gog paper and my previous comment related to Taff sentiment, so 2 different points of view.

Is there any serious reliable polling on the subject?