Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

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FosseWay
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by FosseWay »

Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 14:21 There seems to be a reluctance to use "/" to separate the Welsh and English names, not sure why in cases where both names are short.
Probably because you can't always do that, and as a result you get inconsistent typography. I'm on the fence in this case as to whether that inconsistency would be a problem; I am not of the school of design/layout/editorial thought that teaches that any inconsistency or deviation from writing or brand guidelines is by definition undesirable or prohibited, but if there is a good reason why users might be confused by having two different ways of separating the languages, then it's probably not a good idea to mandate the use of a layout that isn't appropriate in a lot of cases.

As to the core issue of both displaying English and Welsh on signs in an economical fashion and making it clear that two names apply to the same place, I think different colours works best.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by nowster »

Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 14:12
nowster wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 13:24
Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 13:01 Removing verbiage, to be fair, is hardly making a sign bilingual! That said, I'm all in favour of replacing words with symbols - "yds" instead of "yards", "m" instead of "miles".
"m" works, as it's "milltir"; "yds" doesn't as the Welsh equivalent is "llath".
They are symbols, not abbreviations.
I'd posit that "yds" is an abbreviation, having the plural form.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by DB617 »

Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 14:21
DB617 wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 13:37 In a completely fictional example sign reading:

Lllanelli
Sancler
St Clears

...Leaves you just for a second wondering what's going on as there appear to be two Welsh or English destinations and only one written in Welsh.
In that example, it would be spaced to be clear:

Llanelli

Sanclêr
St Clears

... though the space between the first two would not be a full line space. It's not quite double the requirement of just two names, but it is quite a premium. There seems to be a reluctance to use "/" to separate the Welsh and English names, not sure why in cases where both names are short.
One would hope that the signage would be designed correctly. Alas, this is often not the case, but still as you say a space takes up less room in an ideal world than a Welsh/English spelling.

Is / ever used in sign typeface? I'm racking my brains trying to think of examples though something seems to be on the tip of my tongue.

I'm thinking of M4 J8/9 Maidenhead. Still think there's something more obvious. A slash would not always be appropriate, though, for example on fork signs the extra width required on the verge or cluttering of the information is not desirable. In the interests of consistency that leaves us with vertical arrangements.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by PhilC »

Chris Bertram wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 14:21 There seems to be a reluctance to use "/" to separate the Welsh and English names, not sure why in cases where both names are short.
I can vaguely remember the Welsh and English names being bracketed together with a single square bracket to the left of the names, something like,

Abertawe
[
Swansea

In reality the lines would be spaced more closely, with the bracket straddling the two lines. I think this was in the 1980s, but I can't be sure. I presume it was an experiment that didn't catch on.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by rhyds »

I'm not sure how signmaking worked back in the 1970s (as opposed to modern CAD systems) but it must be remembered that the original bilingual signage dates from back then, therefore it may have been deemed too difficult to provide colour differentiation back then and that's how the standard was set at the time.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

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In other news, it seems that the BBC (or at least Radio 4 news) has given up on even trying to pronounce Welsh names. There's currently a coroner's inquest going on in to the death of a former Welsh Government minister at Rhuthun/Ruthin. A simple, straightforward to pronounce town (if you can't roll your Rs properly then "Riffin" will do). However R4 News were reporting from "North Wales", which is meaningless. If they can't work out how to pronounce Rhuthun then why not just call the pronunciation department, and if that doesn't exist then just pick up the phone to BBC Cymru Wales! (apparently what ITN used to do was just call up HTV's on duty announcer if they needed a clarification).
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

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With the way the BBC is set up nowadays, that call to the pronounciation (sic) department could cost a huge amount and generate a lot of paperwork.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by Euan »

rhyds wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 09:01 In other news, it seems that the BBC (or at least Radio 4 news) has given up on even trying to pronounce Welsh names. There's currently a coroner's inquest going on in to the death of a former Welsh Government minister at Rhuthun/Ruthin. A simple, straightforward to pronounce town (if you can't roll your Rs properly then "Riffin" will do). However R4 News were reporting from "North Wales", which is meaningless. If they can't work out how to pronounce Rhuthun then why not just call the pronunciation department, and if that doesn't exist then just pick up the phone to BBC Cymru Wales! (apparently what ITN used to do was just call up HTV's on duty announcer if they needed a clarification).
It's really easy to find out how to pronounce place names anywhere and not just in Wales, so there is no excuse for the BBC not bothering to try and pronounce Ruthin correctly. It is a perfect example of geographical ignorance, how would we know whether "North Wales" is referring to Wrexham (or somewhere within Flintshire or Denbighshire) or if it is referring to Bangor/Caernarfon/Porthmadog? The two different ends of "North Wales" are clearly quite different both culturally and geographically, so it is a bit absurd to place them under just one label. It is perhaps surprising that on that basis the terms "North East Wales" and "North West Wales" are not more popular. Generalisation descriptions can also be quite annoying in the Scottish Highlands where virtually anywhere in the Highland council area is referred to as being in "The Highlands". Could it be Inverness? Or Sutherland? Or perhaps Lochaber? Sometimes it seems quite easy for the media to forget just how large some rural regions are.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by trigpoint »

nowster wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 09:34 A former colleague said that as a kid he had fond memories of playing on Traeth Beach.
Reminds me of a story told to me by a colleague from South Wales. During university holidays he was expecting some university friends to visit.
He received a text message saying 'we've just passed Gwasanaethau Services'
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

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rhyds wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 08:52 I'm not sure how signmaking worked back in the 1970s (as opposed to modern CAD systems) but it must be remembered that the original bilingual signage dates from back then, therefore it may have been deemed too difficult to provide colour differentiation back then and that's how the standard was set at the time.
Knowing the UK the instructions possibly were 'for the Welsh, the same, but in Welsh' and people were lucky there were no signs that pointed to 'Swansea - Swansea (but in Welsh)'
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by RichardA626 »

That's a bit like my Friend's Mum trying to find a town in France called Sortie which was signed for on every major autoroute junction.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by Chris Bertram »

RichardA626 wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 13:35 That's a bit like my Friend's Mum trying to find a town in France called Sortie which was signed for on every major autoroute junction.
There's also "Ausgang" in Germany and "Uscita" in Italy :-)
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by Chris5156 »

rhyds wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 09:01In other news, it seems that the BBC (or at least Radio 4 news) has given up on even trying to pronounce Welsh names. There's currently a coroner's inquest going on in to the death of a former Welsh Government minister at Rhuthun/Ruthin. A simple, straightforward to pronounce town (if you can't roll your Rs properly then "Riffin" will do). However R4 News were reporting from "North Wales", which is meaningless. If they can't work out how to pronounce Rhuthun then why not just call the pronunciation department, and if that doesn't exist then just pick up the phone to BBC Cymru Wales! (apparently what ITN used to do was just call up HTV's on duty announcer if they needed a clarification).
You're making a bit of an assumption that whoever wrote the script omitted the name "Ruthin"/"Rhuthun" (whichever you prefer) because they saw a name they couldn't pronounce and decided it was too difficult. That seems a bit unlikely to me. The news is full of difficult names from all around the world, and R4 newsreaders in particular seem to take gleeful pride in tackling them.

It would seem more likely that, given the town involved has a population of about 5,000 and is not well known, and the specific location is not particularly relevant to understanding the story, a judgement was made that "North Wales" was the most specific geographical information that was needed. I certainly wouldn't know where Ruthin is - I have a pretty good knowledge of UK geography but I'm not convinced I've even heard of it before - but "North Wales" tells me where in the UK the event is happening.

It feels a bit like you're getting cross about something you've assumed to be the case, and to me that explanation doesn't sound very likely.
nowster wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 13:49With the way the BBC is set up nowadays, that call to the pronounciation (sic) department could cost a huge amount and generate a lot of paperwork.
It would cost nothing and generate zero paperwork.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

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Chris5156 wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 15:09
nowster wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 13:49With the way the BBC is set up nowadays, that call to the pronounciation (sic) department could cost a huge amount and generate a lot of paperwork.
It would cost nothing and generate zero paperwork.
Thanks for the correction. I'd heard different about the situation following Checkland's internal reforms.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by trigpoint »

Chris5156 wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 15:09 I certainly wouldn't know where Ruthin is - I have a pretty good knowledge of UK geography but I'm not convinced I've even heard of it before - but "North Wales" tells me where in the UK the event is happening.
I have heard of it, and been there. But I live in Shropshire. It is not a major road destination.

But in this case Wrexham would probably have been both well known and more precise.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

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nowster wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 15:24
Chris5156 wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 15:09
nowster wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 13:49With the way the BBC is set up nowadays, that call to the pronounciation (sic) department could cost a huge amount and generate a lot of paperwork.
It would cost nothing and generate zero paperwork.
Thanks for the correction. I'd heard different about the situation following Checkland's internal reforms.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by Robert Kilcoyne »

trigpoint wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 15:41
Chris5156 wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 15:09 I certainly wouldn't know where Ruthin is - I have a pretty good knowledge of UK geography but I'm not convinced I've even heard of it before - but "North Wales" tells me where in the UK the event is happening.
I have heard of it, and been there. But I live in Shropshire. It is not a major road destination.
But Ruthin is a primary destination:-
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... stinations

Which makes you wonder whether there are too many primary destinations, but that is another matter.

From the SABRE Wiki: Primary Destinations#Welsh Destinations :

Primary Destinations are the key target destinations (technically, "places of major traffic importance") within the United Kingdom that are shown on direction signs along major roads such as Motorways and Primary Routes. These destinations are important key points and are used in combination with local place names that are defined by each local Highway Authority. Primary destinations will appear above local destinations on direction signs due to a furthest first rule in the

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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by Euan »

As someone who has never been to Wales, I know where Ruthin is from various map reading undertaken to no more than a slight to moderate level of commitment to memory. The meeting of the A494 and A525 would be a Sabristic description of the place, but it is the administrative centre of Denbighshire CC and so it probably does deserve some acknowledgement in geographical descriptions. Although the largest town within the CC area is Rhyl, so Ruthin might be slightly forgotten about on that basis.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by J N Winkler »

rhyds wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2018 08:52I'm not sure how signmaking worked back in the 1970s (as opposed to modern CAD systems) but it must be remembered that the original bilingual signage dates from back then, therefore it may have been deemed too difficult to provide colour differentiation back then and that's how the standard was set at the time.
Nope! It was easy to provide color differentiation even back then and that was one of the options studied in a late-1960's TRRL project to investigate the legibility of bilingual signs in Wales. The full menu was as follows:

* Two-line bilingual name pairs with Welsh and English versions of the name on separate lines (this was the option originally adopted in the late 1960's when the Welsh Office authorized bilingual legends to tamp down sign vandalism; current standards call for a minimum 3 sw separation between adjacent bilingual name pairs to allow destinations to be differentiated)

* Two-line bilingual name pairs with a bracket ranged to the left and centered on the line break, to indicate the two elements of the pair refer to the same destination

* Two-line bilingual name pairs with English in mixed-case on top and Welsh in smaller all-uppercase on bottom (similar to current practice in Ireland, except with different ordering of English and non-English, smaller size for non-English, and no italicization)

* Two-line bilingual name pairs with Welsh appearing in different colors (white on brown, as patch or separate sign, where English appears in black on white; yellow where the English appears as white against a dark background--essentially similar to current practice in Scotland for Scottish Gaelic placenames)

National Archives file MT 112/351 has further details.

The question asked upthread that is more difficult to answer is why slashes and ruled horizontal lines were not used to separate the two languages within bilingual name pairs. Slashes and horizontal lines are indeed now part of the official standards in Spain, which however are of more recent vintage because the use of Iberian languages other than Castilian Spanish was officially suppressed until Franco died. Slashes and horizontal lines are also favored in Canada, where bilingual English/French signing is widespread and is officially required in some contexts (e.g. Francophone Ontario under the French Language Services Act, federal government sites under the Government Property Traffic Regulations, etc.). However, in other European countries with formal rules for bilingual signing, such as Ireland (systematic provision, "pre-Worboys" practice calling for Irish in smaller letters partly because Irish placenames tend to be longer than their English equivalents), Switzerland (very limited provision in French/German contact territory), or Finland (systematic provision according to a system of demographic thresholds), vertical separation or use of separate sign panels has been favored over graphical elements like slashes and ruled lines. This is also the approach favored in Israel (trilingual and bilingual legends are used, all with vertical separation), Russia, East Asian countries where primary legend is in CJKV characters, and most of the very isolated examples of bilingual signing in the US (1; arguably also 2 as an exception that proves the rule). Another factor is that while slashes can save space, horizontal ruled lines greatly increase the space required unless normal interline space padding is seriously compromised.
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Re: Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

Post by vlad »

Robert Kilcoyne wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 16:16But Ruthin is a primary destination:-
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... stinations
Just because it's a primary destination doesn't mean people from outside the area will have heard of it.

For example, where are Garston, Ringwood or Swaffham? :)
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From the SABRE Wiki: Primary Destinations#Welsh Destinations :

Primary Destinations are the key target destinations (technically, "places of major traffic importance") within the United Kingdom that are shown on direction signs along major roads such as Motorways and Primary Routes. These destinations are important key points and are used in combination with local place names that are defined by each local Highway Authority. Primary destinations will appear above local destinations on direction signs due to a furthest first rule in the

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