Mono-lingual direction signs in Wales

[crazyknightsfan]

Are there many mono-lingual direction signs left in Wales? From what I have read it seems like bilingual signs were made compulsory decades ago, so I wonder whether there are any or many older signs that haven't yet been updated?

[rhyds]

Where there isn't an English translation of a name (e.g. Machynlleth, Dolgellau, Aberystwyth, Llangurig, Llangurig) there are Welsh-only monolingual signs.

As for English monolingual signs, very few survive. The early Worboys type monolingual signs were generally replaced pretty quickly as there was a defacement protest campaign against them, and most of the ones left are the very old pre-Worboys type with the absolutely horrendous anglicised names of towns on them (Aberayron for Aberaeron or Dolgelley for Dolgellau are two that really annoy).

[exiled]

Gwent was a hold out until its abolition in 1996, I would imagine it has a high level of monolingual signs remaining in its successors.

[Chris Bertram]

Where there isn't an English translation of a name (e.g. Machynlleth, Dolgellau, Aberystwyth, Llangurig, Llangurig) there are Welsh-only monolingual signs.

As for English monolingual signs, very few survive. The early Worboys type monolingual signs were generally replaced pretty quickly as there was a defacement protest campaign against them, and most of the ones left are the very old pre-Worboys type with the absolutely horrendous anglicised names of towns on them (Aberayron for Aberaeron or Dolgelley for Dolgellau are two that really annoy).

You forgot Caernarvon, Portmadoc and Tremadoc There are also some place names which are English-only, particularly in South Pembrokeshire and in a few places around the border. One that's always puzzled me is Bow Street, just north of Aberystwyth. And Crosskeys in Blaenau Gwent is named after the hotel at the junction (the rugby club, however is Cross Keys). I daresay the committee for inventing Welsh place names is on the case now.

[rhyds]

Where there isn't an English translation of a name (e.g. Machynlleth, Dolgellau, Aberystwyth, Llangurig, Llangurig) there are Welsh-only monolingual signs.

As for English monolingual signs, very few survive. The early Worboys type monolingual signs were generally replaced pretty quickly as there was a defacement protest campaign against them, and most of the ones left are the very old pre-Worboys type with the absolutely horrendous anglicised names of towns on them (Aberayron for Aberaeron or Dolgelley for Dolgellau are two that really annoy).

You forgot Caernarvon, Portmadoc and Tremadoc There are also some place names which are English-only, particularly in South Pembrokeshire and in a few places around the border. One that's always puzzled me is Bow Street, just north of Aberystwyth. And Crosskeys in Blaenau Gwent is named after the hotel at the junction (the rugby club, however is Cross Keys). I daresay the committee for inventing Welsh place names is on the case now.

Well considering Bow Street was obviously invented then I can't see the problem! If it ever does happen then it's probably going to be named Rhyd y Pennau (which is the name of the local school) as that's the name of the hamlet that's been absorbed by Bow Street's rampant urban sprawl...

[RichardA35]

Are there many mono-lingual direction signs left in Wales? From what I have read it seems like bilingual signs were made compulsory decades ago, so I wonder whether there are any or many older signs that haven't yet been updated?

An old relic from the Mold to Wrexham road

[Chris Bertram]

Are there many mono-lingual direction signs left in Wales? From what I have read it seems like bilingual signs were made compulsory decades ago, so I wonder whether there are any or many older signs that haven't yet been updated?

An old relic from the Mold to Wrexham roadwrexham.jpg

Mmm, that's just wrong in so many ways

But I would agree that in the Wrexham area some relics remain, chiefly of the distance/End plate variety.

[ANiceEnglishman]

Gwent was a hold out until its abolition in 1996, I would imagine it has a high level of monolingual signs remaining in its successors.

Two which come to mind besides Crosskeys are Pye Corner in Casnewydd and Varteg in Torfaen. The good people of the latter declined to have the name of their village spelt in Welsh as Farteg.

[Robert Kilcoyne]

You forgot Caernarvon, Portmadoc and Tremadoc

And Conway.

[nowster]

There are many places called "Four Crosses" but the translation of the one near Pwllheli (Y Ffôr) is odd. Maybe because there are already plenty of places called "Croesffordd" or similar nearby.

[trigpoint]

You forgot Caernarvon, Portmadoc and Tremadoc

And Conway.

And Llanelly, they all look so wrong these days.

[WHBM]

the very old pre-Worboys type with the absolutely horrendous anglicised names of towns on them (Aberayron for Aberaeron or Dolgelley for Dolgellau are two that really annoy).

Is it not excessive hyperbole to say "absolutely horrendous" for something that is just one character different ?

Around London there is a very common mis-spelling of the airport at Stansted as Stanstead, including no doubt a proportion of those from Wales travelling from there. But I don't scream "absolutely horrendous" when I see it.

[rhyds]

the very old pre-Worboys type with the absolutely horrendous anglicised names of towns on them (Aberayron for Aberaeron or Dolgelley for Dolgellau are two that really annoy).

Is it not excessive hyperbole to say "absolutely horrendous" for something that is just one character different ?

I'm sorry, but it is horrendous. It was purposefully miss-spelling place names so that lazy monolingual Anglophones wouldn't need to bother themselves with learning even the basics of another language. Aberdovey is another that really grinds, the proper name is Aberdyfi, the only linguistic contortion a non-Welsh speaker has to do is remember that a single F sounds like a V, but no, even that is a bit difficult.

[Bryn666]

It's only a letter different yet I find being called Bryan to be extremely horrendous... what's your thoughts on that one, WHAM?

[exiled]

the very old pre-Worboys type with the absolutely horrendous anglicised names of towns on them (Aberayron for Aberaeron or Dolgelley for Dolgellau are two that really annoy).

Is it not excessive hyperbole to say "absolutely horrendous" for something that is just one character different ?

I'm sorry, but it is horrendous. It was purposefully miss-spelling place names so that lazy monolingual Anglophones wouldn't need to bother themselves with learning even the basics of another language. Aberdovey is another that really grinds, the proper name is Aberdyfi, the only linguistic contortion a non-Welsh speaker has to do is remember that a single F sounds like a V, but no, even that is a bit difficult.

Aberdovey sounds like an Aldi own label soap.

[Chris Bertram]

the very old pre-Worboys type with the absolutely horrendous anglicised names of towns on them (Aberayron for Aberaeron or Dolgelley for Dolgellau are two that really annoy).

Is it not excessive hyperbole to say "absolutely horrendous" for something that is just one character different ?

I'm sorry, but it is horrendous. It was purposefully miss-spelling place names so that lazy monolingual Anglophones wouldn't need to bother themselves with learning even the basics of another language. Aberdovey is another that really grinds, the proper name is Aberdyfi, the only linguistic contortion a non-Welsh speaker has to do is remember that a single F sounds like a V, but no, even that is a bit difficult.

It's an exonym - a name for a place that is different in another language. We have loads of them in English - Munich, Rome, Copenhagen, Lisbon, Prague, Warsaw, Moscow, Vienna - none of these are called that in their native language. Hell, even Welsh has them - Briste, Llundain, Caer, Manceinion, Rhydychen to give just a few. It is possible to be just a *bit* oversensitive about these things, you know? Sure, some of them (mainly those that were effectively just respellings of Welsh names) have been dropped, but there's no rule to say that they all must be.

[jimboLL]

Hi I'm new.

Anyway, around the Sketty (Sgeti) area of Swansea (Abertawe) are several monolingual signs such as the below (hope the link works). I'm convinced that until recently there used to be some marked in furlongs on Sketty Lane (Lon Sgeti) but I can't seem to find them on Streetview, so maybe they've gone.

[gmap]https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.61814 ... 312!8i6656[/gmap]

(Y) Mwmbwls
(Y) Gwyr
Abertawe
Caerfyrddin

[exiled]

It's an exonym - a name for a place that is different in another language. We have loads of them in English - Munich, Rome, Copenhagen, Lisbon, Prague, Warsaw, Moscow, Vienna - none of these are called that in their native language. Hell, even Welsh has them - Briste, Llundain, Caer, Manceinion, Rhydychen to give just a few. It is possible to be just a *bit* oversensitive about these things, you know? Sure, some of them (mainly those that were effectively just respellings of Welsh names) have been dropped, but there's no rule to say that they all must be.

Though in the case of Aberdovey, Llanelly, Dolgelly, these are not exonyms - both Swansea and Cardiff are established exonyms, they are modern bad respellings of the local name to fit the orthography of the state language. Sure you can say the same for Cardiff and the English names of some places in Scotland like Inverness, but these Anglicisations were well established for centuries before road signs often the ones in Wales are lazy inventions of the 'get me a sign to point to Dolgelly, yon peasant lad.'

[Chris Bertram]

It's an exonym - a name for a place that is different in another language. We have loads of them in English - Munich, Rome, Copenhagen, Lisbon, Prague, Warsaw, Moscow, Vienna - none of these are called that in their native language. Hell, even Welsh has them - Briste, Llundain, Caer, Manceinion, Rhydychen to give just a few. It is possible to be just a *bit* oversensitive about these things, you know? Sure, some of them (mainly those that were effectively just respellings of Welsh names) have been dropped, but there's no rule to say that they all must be.

Though in the case of Aberdovey, Llanelly, Dolgelly, these are not exonyms - both Swansea and Cardiff are established exonyms, they are modern bad respellings of the local name to fit the orthography of the state language. Sure you can say the same for Cardiff and the English names of some places in Scotland like Inverness, but these Anglicisations were well established for centuries before road signs often the ones in Wales are lazy inventions of the 'get me a sign to point to Dolgelly, yon peasant lad.'

Exonyms vary from mere respellings to drastically different names. I must admit I hear no difference to the way people say Kolkata from the way they said Calcutta. OTOH, we spell Buenos Aires the same way as the Argentinians, but say it a very different way, and the same is true of Paris when compared with French pronunciation. The English spelling of Aberdovey achieves the aim of getting people familiar with English (and not *just* the English themselves) to pronounce it the right way, while retaining the Welsh structure of the name. How to pronounce Welsh is not widely understood outside Wales (I am a bit of an exception there), and there is a minuscule chance of anyone from outside the UK knowing the rules. Cutting them a bit of slack seems not unreasonable in those terms.

Oh, and Swansea is not a "bad respelling" of a local Welsh name, it's the modern version of "Sweyn's ey", or Sweyn's Island, a Saxon name. The Welsh name is Abertawe, referring to the city's position at the mouth of a river. Both names exist happily side by side.

[exiled]

I disagree. Kolkata is largely a respelling of the transliteration of the name Culcutta came from, same with the Romanisation of Beijing changing from Peking. Most exonyms are historic, not simple respelling which is what these are. Most exonyms in English are borrowings from French rather than anglicisms themselves, notable there are almost no places we spell in France with a different way to French, to Provencal, Breton, Gascon yes, but not French. We leave French spellings as they are and mangle the pronunciation like it is going out of fashion. The example of Aberdovey or Llanelly was designed to remove Welsh.

It would be closer to the signs going up directing to 'Portsmouse' 'Monshestre' in England to render the names French, whereas a name like Londres, Chateauneuf are either established exonyms or translations, these would be like Dolgelly, attempts to change the name.

As for the example of Swansea, that was an example of an established exonym of a completely different way of developing the name, same with Aachen getting Aix la Chapelle in French. Cardiff is an established 'bad spelling' exonym.