70mph signs in Scotland

[Andy33gmail]

I feel like 9/10 forum members here know the secret but I don’t...

Are they just a relic from some point in time before NSL when Scotland wanted to try a speed limit? This feels unlikely because it misses the intermediate silliness of lower speed limits due to the oil crisis

Is there a modern-day difference in legislation which means Scottish motorways do not have a 70mph NSL?

Why isn’t there a consistent treatment of NSL/70 limit areas* - i.e. why doesn’t the mainline have at the border a change of limit?

*I really wanted to say zones because it conveys what I mean, but I know speed limits and zones are different things

[nowster]

I suspect it's some quirk in the road legislation when it was implemented in the Scottish legal framework.

[nowster]

It'll be very interesting if a Scottish equivalent of Mr Loophole argues the Aberdeen bypass as having no speed limit by virtue of its being a Special Road with NSL signage.

[c2R]

I suspect it's some quirk in the road legislation when it was implemented in the Scottish legal framework.

yes, it is/was; which also explains why there are/were sections of the A1/A720 where NSL was signed from/into 70 zones.

I'm not sure if the loophole has since been closed.

[Westie]

I suspect it's some quirk in the road legislation when it was implemented in the Scottish legal framework.

yes, it is/was; which also explains why there are/were sections of the A1/A720 where NSL was signed from/into 70 zones.

I'm not sure if the loophole has since been closed.

Aren't the A720 and A1 special roads, as opposed to bona fide motorways - thus, having the requirement for an explicit speed limit?

Additionally, I believe the recently bridged M80 has NSL signage on its mainline, so, either someone realised that 70mph signage in Scotland is indeed superfluous, or wanted to create a Scottish Autobahn.

(regarding that first thought, do you ever see any 70mph repeaters on a Scottish motorway? )

[c2R]

They are special roads but signed as A roads, yes.

I'd noticed the M80 has NSL signs.

The A74(M) towards England opened with 70 signs at entrances, e.g. https://www.google.com/maps/@55.0647023 ... 312!8i6656

[Bomag]

As mentioned above this is due to Scotland writing thier laws in a way which muck up signing of speed limits.

A 70 mph speed limit sign (Diagram 670) is not a prescibed varient in the TSRGD. Due to the wording of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 it is not lawful to authorise it as TfS have attempted to do so (although reference has, in the past, been made to certain bits of Scottish law to justify this, RTRA is UK legeislation for which this is Ultra Viries). However, given the TSRGD is now devolved in Scotland they can prescibed it via an SI along with other bits of snake oil such as speed limit coundown signs.

In terms of enforcement it does not make much difference as under Section 85 of RTRA whatever is signed would be adequate guidance. If you don't know of this issue then having no signs would be condiered to indicate that a limit equalalent of NSL applies. If you do know then you cannot argue that you have not committed an offence. Just don't drive into a 70 mph sign.

[nowster]

Can you explain the A55 Llanddulas to Conwy Morfa section's signs, then?

[Stevie D]

Are they just a relic from some point in time before NSL when Scotland wanted to try a speed limit? This feels unlikely because it misses the intermediate silliness of lower speed limits due to the oil crisis

Is there a modern-day difference in legislation which means Scottish motorways do not have a 70mph NSL?

Special road legislation in Scotland omits the concept of a default speed limit, and so motorways and other special roads (like the restricted sections of A1, A720 etc) need to have the 70 limit explicitly signed or the road would quite literally have no speed limit. Why this is the case is a question I can't answer. In England & Wales, special road legislation does specify a default NSL, and so the 70 signs are not used.

[nowster]

In England & Wales, special road legislation does specify a default NSL, and so the 70 signs are not used.

Not quite. Motorway legislation specifies a default NSL. Other classes of special road do not. See A55 Conwy.

[Westie]

Special road legislation in Scotland omits the concept of a default speed limit, and so motorways and other special roads (like the restricted sections of A1, A720 etc) need to have the 70 limit explicitly signed or the road would quite literally have no speed limit. Why this is the case is a question I can't answer. In England & Wales, special road legislation does specify a default NSL, and so the 70 signs are not used.

As far as I can tell, the Motorway speed limit regulations in Scotland are the same as the ones in force within England and Wales.

The TSRGD states for diagram 670 that "numerals may be varied" without constraining this further [in terms of which numerals], so there is nothing necessarily wrong with having a sign being explicitly demarcated for 70mph (hello non-motorway Special Roads)

However, motorways without prescribed speed limits are by definition under coverage of the national speed limit (via the regs), so diagram 671 signage should be used.

Basically, it's a mistake that 70 signs are used on Scottish motorways.

[Brigham]

Could 80mph be signed on Scottish motorways?

[Andy33gmail]

If it's possible to raise the NSL for HGVs on a specific road (A9), it ought to be possible to raise the NSL for cars

[nowster]

Could 80mph be signed on Scottish motorways?

Yes, as it could be in England and Wales. In Northern Ireland the law is different, and you'd have to raise the class limits for cars to match.

[Euan]

Could 80mph be signed on Scottish motorways?

At the moment 70mph signs are used on motorways in Scotland rather than the NSL signs used on non-motorway dual carriageways. 80mph would be signed as such on motorways if there ever was a proposal to increase the speed limit on motorways, but NSL signs on non-motorways would have to be swapped with 60mph/70mph signs if the 80mph were only to apply on motorways in order to avoid confusion.

[nowster]

... NSL signs on non-motorways would have to be swapped with 60mph/70mph signs if the 80mph were only to apply on motorways in order to avoid confusion.

All you do is sign the 80mph with repeaters on the special high speed section, and have the NSL sign revert to 70mph.

[AndyB]

Long term the way round all of this is to:

• repeal section 86(6) of RTRA
• amend Schedule 6 to match Schedule 1 of the Motor Vehicles (Speed Limits) Regulations (NI) 1989
• revoke regulation 3 of MT(SL)R 1974

[Vierwielen]

Long term the way round all of this is to:

• repeal section 86(6) of RTRA
• amend Schedule 6 to match Schedule 1 of the Motor Vehicles (Speed Limits) Regulations (NI) 1989
• revoke regulation 3 of MT(SL)R 1974

You would also have to look at the Scotland Act 1988 to see whether the Scottish Parliament had the power to make such changes. I read though Part II, para E.1 of the Schedule 5 of the Scotland Act 1988, but it was unclear as to exactly what authority had been delegated.

I also looked at the possiblity of the Scots have a 120 km/h speed limit and saw that Part II para C.9 does not prevent the Scots from using of km/h (though of course some other bit of legislation might do so).

[AndyB]

I was thinking on a GB-wide scale rather than merely Scotland - the law in NI placing the restrictions on vehicles rather than on roads is a great deal more sensible. It also solves the A55 problem, as the speed limit for cars would take precedence over the lack of speed limit on the road.

I'll have a look at Schedule 5 of the Scotland Act later on

EDIT: Well, actually, since only Section 17 and 87 are reserved to Westminster, anything else in RTRA 1984 - including Section 86(6) - is fair game for Holyrood.

[Nwallace]

As far as I can tell, the Motorway speed limit regulations in Scotland are the same as the ones in force within England and Wales.

Except they're not... because they've been Devolved, they just happen to look very very similar.
What's more in many cases Acts of the UK parliament that apply to Scotland will have the grubby finger prints of civil servants working for either the Scottish Government or the Secretary of State for Scotland all over them as different terms need to be used in order for them to apply under Scots Law.
Good examples of it can be seen in the Road Traffic Acts due to the difference in definition of a Restricted Road and in the fact that in Scotland if it looks and smells like a road, then it is a Road regardless of who owns it.

As for "The Scotland Act" there's three 1998, 2012 and 2016 that you need to read to figure out what's reserved and what's devolved.