70mph signs in Scotland

[Vierwielen]

As far as I can tell, the Motorway speed limit regulations in Scotland are the same as the ones in force within England and Wales.

Except they're not... because they've been Devolved, they just happen to look very very similar.
What's more in many cases Acts of the UK parliament that apply to Scotland will have the grubby finger prints of civil servants working for either the Scottish Government or the Secretary of State for Scotland all over them as different terms need to be used in order for them to apply under Scots Law.
Good examples of it can be seen in the Road Traffic Acts due to the difference in definition of a Restricted Road and in the fact that in Scotland if it looks and smells like a road, then it is a Road regardless of who owns it.

As for "The Scotland Act" there's three 1998, 2012 and 2016 that you need to read to figure out what's reserved and what's devolved.

BREXIT threatens to compliocate matters further. Assuming that it goes ahead, there is a debate as to which powers currentlyheld by the EU will be devolved to Westminster and which to Holyrood, fishing being, I understand, the most contentious of them.

[Euan]

I think it was part of the Scotland Act 2016 when speed limits were devolved to Holyrood and they were definitely not devolved in the initial 1998 package, so we could easily change speed limits if we ever wish to.

[AndyB]

1998 as amended still says that Section 86 of RTRA isn't reserved

[Westie]

As far as I can tell, the Motorway speed limit regulations in Scotland are the same as the ones in force within England and Wales.

Except they're not... because they've been Devolved, they just happen to look very very similar.

Has there been any legislation that has modified and/or repealed The Motorways Traffic (Speed Limit) Regulations 1974 within Scotland?

[Nwallace]

As far as I can tell, the Motorway speed limit regulations in Scotland are the same as the ones in force within England and Wales.

Except they're not... because they've been Devolved, they just happen to look very very similar.
What's more in many cases Acts of the UK parliament that apply to Scotland will have the grubby finger prints of civil servants working for either the Scottish Government or the Secretary of State for Scotland all over them as different terms need to be used in order for them to apply under Scots Law.
Good examples of it can be seen in the Road Traffic Acts due to the difference in definition of a Restricted Road and in the fact that in Scotland if it looks and smells like a road, then it is a Road regardless of who owns it.

As for "The Scotland Act" there's three 1998, 2012 and 2016 that you need to read to figure out what's reserved and what's devolved.

BREXIT threatens to compliocate matters further. Assuming that it goes ahead, there is a debate as to which powers currentlyheld by the EU will be devolved to Westminster and which to Holyrood, fishing being, I understand, the most contentious of them.

It's worse than that.
Fishing is currently devolved to Holyrood, because the EU consider it a regional matter and therefore the Scottish Fisheries minister may attend meetings as may the UK fisheries minister, with the UK leaving the EU all EU regional matters return to Westminster first, and then may be redevolved in future...
Hence the power grab rhetoric.

Unfortunately the fud that's been on the CFP board for the UK was a Brexiteer that really refused to do little more than gloat in parliament so the Fishermen feel they've been shafted by the EU Parliament on the CFP when in fact it's their very own representative failing to do his job and argue their position that has.

[Nwallace]

As far as I can tell, the Motorway speed limit regulations in Scotland are the same as the ones in force within England and Wales.

Except they're not... because they've been Devolved, they just happen to look very very similar.

Has there been any legislation that has modified and/or repealed The Motorways Traffic (Speed Limit) Regulations 1974 within Scotland?

Probably not, the version of legislation.gov.uk is only available in original form.

Digging further, although the 2016 additions to the Scotland Act included the speed limit elements of the Road Traffic Act, there's no mention of the "The Motorways Traffic (Speed Limit) Regulations 1974"

The SSIs implemented for the Forth Replacement Crossing all refer only to their powers under RTRA 1984

[AndyB]

Regulations aren't listed in the Scotland Act - the authority to make (or amend) them comes from the powers under the enabling Act, in this case the RTRA.

As with NI, the Scotland Act states what is not devolved and what is reserved. Everything else (in this case anything relating to road transport not listed in Head E of Schedule 5) is therefore within the competence of the Scottish Parliament.

As far as I can tell, the Motorway speed limit regulations in Scotland are the same as the ones in force within England and Wales.

Except they're not... because they've been Devolved, they just happen to look very very similar.

Has there been any legislation that has modified and/or repealed The Motorways Traffic (Speed Limit) Regulations 1974 within Scotland?

As far as I can tell on legislation.gov.uk the MTR(SL) Regulations apply to all of Great Britain and the Scottish Parliament has not seen fit to amend them as they relate to Scotland. Nwallace may be confusing them with the Motorways Traffic (England and Wales) Regulations 1982 and the Motorways Traffic (Scotland) Regulations 1995 because the regulations for motorway traffic other than speed limit have always been separate.

[Nwallace]

Regulations aren't listed in the Scotland Act - the authority to make (or amend) them comes from the powers under the enabling Act, in this case the RTRA.

As with NI, the Scotland Act states what is not devolved and what is reserved. Everything else (in this case anything relating to road transport not listed in Head E of Schedule 5) is therefore within the competence of the Scottish Parliament.

Except they're not... because they've been Devolved, they just happen to look very very similar.

Has there been any legislation that has modified and/or repealed The Motorways Traffic (Speed Limit) Regulations 1974 within Scotland?

As far as I can tell on legislation.gov.uk the MTR(SL) Regulations apply to all of Great Britain and the Scottish Parliament has not seen fit to amend them as they relate to Scotland. Nwallace may be confusing them with the Motorways Traffic (England and Wales) Regulations 1982 and the Motorways Traffic (Scotland) Regulations 1995 because the regulations for motorway traffic other than speed limit have always been separate.

My point was more that:
In the case of Acts of parliament where the E+W and Scottish acts are combined they look pretty much the same until you actually read them as required for the jurisdiction you are reading it for; the E+W version will constantly refer to "The Secretary of State" while the Scot version will be read with the words "The Scottish Ministers". There are also plenty of other substitutions, the definition of a Road and the definition of a Restricted Road being other examples.

It's more obvious when the acts are separate, I was digging around and found an SI relating to Cycle Racing on the public highway from the 1930s,
The intent of both the E+W SI and the Scottish SI was clearly the same, define a Time Trial, call all else a Race, set maximum entry limits and require you to contact the relevant authority for approval...

Yet the way it was written by the civil servant in Whitehall acting on behalf of the secretary of state produced a very very different document from the civil servant in Bute House, who even got to sign it off himself!


The queried SI is a bit different again:
Example:

In these Regulations, the expression “motorway” —

(a)so far as relating to motorways in England and Wales, has the meaning assigned to it in the Motorways Traffic Regulations 1959(1); and
(b)so far as relating to motorways in Scotland, has the meaning assigned to it in the Motorways Traffic (Scotland) Regulations 1964(2).
(2) The Interpretation Act 1889 shall apply for the interpretation of these Regulations as it applies for the interpretation of an Act of Parliament, and as if for the purposes of section 38 of that Act these Regulations were an Act of Parliament and the Regulations revoked by Regulation 6 below were an Act of Parliament thereby repealed.

It explicitly states the meanings for each rule of law.

But then the SI states lengths of roads specifically, some of which no longer exist, and the SI hasn't had the amendments linked anyway.
SSIs have been issued to cover lengths of Motorways in Scotland by the Scottish Ministers that would supersede the SI.

[AndyB]

Yes, but the MT(SL)R doesn’t have any variations for Scotland. It’s a single set of regulations for all of Great Britain - there is no regulation that applies in one version in Scotland and another version in England and Wales.

That only happens if Parliament amends the regulations for E&W but Scotland doesn’t follow suit (like 50mph for HGVs) or vice versa.

When Acts and SIs are initially made, if they are to have different effects in Scotland than in England and Wales, then separate differently numbered sections are written within the legislation rather than having the same paragraph saying something different depending where you are standing (or indeed on what date!)

[Vipers]

It'll be very interesting if a Scottish equivalent of Mr Loophole argues the Aberdeen bypass as having no speed limit by virtue of its being a Special Road with NSL signage.

In the past two weeks at the Stonehaven end heading north the NSL sign has been replaced with 70.

I have emailed BEAR and asked why, they said they would revert to me. So A90 Dundee to Stonehaven is NSL, Stonehaven onwards is 70, nuts.

[orudge]

I assume they’ve gone it at every junction (they’re at the start of the onslips of the A944 junction for instance). Additionally the speed limit signs are now at the start of the onslip, as you’d expect, and not at the merge point, which was just bizarre.

The A90 ‘gap’ between the two sections of M90 around South Queensferry is a special road (classes I, II and IV) - does it have 70 signs? I can’t say I remember any. Possibly the VSL there alters the requirements though.

[Glenn A]

Might it be possible on quieter motorways, such as the A74(M)/M74 and the M90, that speed limits could be raised to 80mph, with an 80 sign advising you of the speed limit. I know driving from jct 8 to 21, the motorway is fairly quiet and most people seem to ignore the speed limit going downhill from Beattock.

[Chris Bertram]

Might it be possible on quieter motorways, such as the A74(M)/M74 and the M90, that speed limits could be raised to 80mph, with an 80 sign advising you of the speed limit. I know driving from jct 8 to 21, the motorway is fairly quiet and most people seem to ignore the speed limit going downhill from Beattock.

Yeah, but Police Scotland have their mobile cash machines to feed ...

[Euan]

Might it be possible on quieter motorways, such as the A74(M)/M74 and the M90, that speed limits could be raised to 80mph, with an 80 sign advising you of the speed limit. I know driving from jct 8 to 21, the motorway is fairly quiet and most people seem to ignore the speed limit going downhill from Beattock.

I think the most likely motorways that could potentially have their speed limits increased to 80mph would be quieter ones that cover long distances between major urban centres, so the A74(M)/M74 is probably the most likely Scottish motorway that 80mph could be used on. The M90 is a bit short to get much of a benefit in reducing journey time - even on the A74(M)/M74 you would probably only be looking at saving around 10 minutes if you drove from one end to the other at 80mph rather than 70mph.

[Chris Bertram]

Might it be possible on quieter motorways, such as the A74(M)/M74 and the M90, that speed limits could be raised to 80mph, with an 80 sign advising you of the speed limit. I know driving from jct 8 to 21, the motorway is fairly quiet and most people seem to ignore the speed limit going downhill from Beattock.

I think the most likely motorways that could potentially have their speed limits increased to 80mph would be quieter ones that cover long distances between major urban centres, so the A74(M)/M74 is probably the most likely Scottish motorway that 80mph could be used on. The M90 is a bit short to get much of a benefit in reducing journey time - even on the A74(M)/M74 you would probably only be looking at saving around 10 minutes if you drove from one end to the other at 80mph rather than 70mph.

Yes, but if you could save 10 minutes safely, why wouldn't you? However, with the the Scottish Government having declined to match England and Wales in increasing the HGV speed limit to 50 on single carriageway roads, A9 excepted, I see no chance of this happening.

[fras]

Not only but also....
The A75 across southern Galloway is absolutely festooned with signs for HGVs emphasising the 40 mph limit.

[Nwallace]

It'll be very interesting if a Scottish equivalent of Mr Loophole argues the Aberdeen bypass as having no speed limit by virtue of its being a Special Road with NSL signage.

In the past two weeks at the Stonehaven end heading north the NSL sign has been replaced with 70.

I have emailed BEAR and asked why, they said they would revert to me. So A90 Dundee to Stonehaven is NSL, Stonehaven onwards is 70, nuts.

That's because on the A90 route North of Stonehaven for the AWPR and Ancillaries it's a "Special Road" and between Walnut Grove and Stonehaven it's a "Road".

As with Owen I can't remember if there's 70 signs on the special road section south of the forth; though I did note that in the VSL areas the NSL sign is used...

Not only but also....
The A75 across southern Galloway is absolutely festooned with signs for HGVs emphasising the 40 mph limit.

Reminders of the vehicle based speed limit differential have been pretty common on scottish main roads.
The weird symbol indicating small vans is still on the A90

[Glenn A]

Not only but also....
The A75 across southern Galloway is absolutely festooned with signs for HGVs emphasising the 40 mph limit.

Surely this adds to businesses costs and causes congestion. However, if Scotland insist on this draconian and outdated speed limit so be it,

[orudge]

I can’t see any speed limit increases being proposed in Scotland, primarily due to environmental reasons (i.e. faster cars = more pollution = not compatible with climate emergency). Even if we’re all driving EVs, I can’t see that changing in a hurry.

[Nwallace]

Not only but also....
The A75 across southern Galloway is absolutely festooned with signs for HGVs emphasising the 40 mph limit.

Surely this adds to businesses costs and causes congestion. However, if Scotland insist on this draconian and outdated speed limit so be it,

It's not like the limit has been dropped.
It's not exactly the best of roads either.

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