70mph signs in Scotland

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Chris Bertram
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Re: 70mph signs in Scotland

Post by Chris Bertram »

Nwallace wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 23:35
Glenn A wrote:
fras wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:11 Not only but also....
The A75 across southern Galloway is absolutely festooned with signs for HGVs emphasising the 40 mph limit.
Surely this adds to businesses costs and causes congestion. However, if Scotland insist on this draconian and outdated speed limit so be it,
It's not like the limit has been dropped.
It's not exactly the best of roads either.
I'm sure it has its slower sections, where even cars would struggle to get much above 40, but it's had quite a few improvements over the years, including straightenings and bypasses, and on these sections it would be quite reasonable for HGVs to get up to 50 - but they're not allowed to! I suggest that, to pick a comparable road, it's no worse, and maybe better, than A40 between Fishguard and St Clears, where the raised limit does apply to HGVs.

If the Scottish government does have a very good reason for retaining the lower limit, I'd love to hear it, but the road infrastructure of Scotland, apart perhaps from the Highlands, is pretty comparable to that of England and Wales, and the existence of the many single-track roads in the Highlands is no reason to constrain traffic in the rest of the country.
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the cheesecake man
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Re: 70mph signs in Scotland

Post by the cheesecake man »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 08:57 If the Scottish government does have a very good reason...
They can't be seen to follow suggestions from English Tories? :stir:
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Re: 70mph signs in Scotland

Post by rhyds »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 08:57
Nwallace wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 23:35
Glenn A wrote: Surely this adds to businesses costs and causes congestion. However, if Scotland insist on this draconian and outdated speed limit so be it,
It's not like the limit has been dropped.
It's not exactly the best of roads either.
I'm sure it has its slower sections, where even cars would struggle to get much above 40, but it's had quite a few improvements over the years, including straightenings and bypasses, and on these sections it would be quite reasonable for HGVs to get up to 50 - but they're not allowed to! I suggest that, to pick a comparable road, it's no worse, and maybe better, than A40 between Fishguard and St Clears, where the raised limit does apply to HGVs.

If the Scottish government does have a very good reason for retaining the lower limit, I'd love to hear it, but the road infrastructure of Scotland, apart perhaps from the Highlands, is pretty comparable to that of England and Wales, and the existence of the many single-track roads in the Highlands is no reason to constrain traffic in the rest of the country.
Also, it must be said, the 40mph HGV speed limit has to be the most widely flouted speed limit or road regulation ever introduced. Even before the increase from 40 to 50mph in England and Wales you very rarely saw HGVs doing anything other than 56mph unless they were physically unable (going up hill or unsuitable roads), or had their limiters set lower (fuel economy reasons). The chances of being caught were very low, especially in rural Wales where the "problem" was tolerated as the alternative would be considerably more traffic congestion due to fewer overtaking opportunities.

Going from a 40mph to a 50mph limit simply formalised what had been going on for years beforehand. Scotland, for whatever reason, has decided not to follow England and Wales in doing this. Now this could be due to certain political pressures, or even the fact that Scotland has a much higher percentage of S1 routes (including some trunk routes) that they don't want HGVs barrelling down at 50, however as I believe that without ANPR-based average speed monitoring systems you need "in person" enforcement to fine HGV speed limits (IIRC none of the fixed cameras can be set to recognise different vehicle classes) the chances of being stopped in the Highlands are probably very low.
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Chris Bertram
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Re: 70mph signs in Scotland

Post by Chris Bertram »

rhyds wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:32
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 08:57
Nwallace wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 23:35 It's not like the limit has been dropped.
It's not exactly the best of roads either.
I'm sure it has its slower sections, where even cars would struggle to get much above 40, but it's had quite a few improvements over the years, including straightenings and bypasses, and on these sections it would be quite reasonable for HGVs to get up to 50 - but they're not allowed to! I suggest that, to pick a comparable road, it's no worse, and maybe better, than A40 between Fishguard and St Clears, where the raised limit does apply to HGVs.

If the Scottish government does have a very good reason for retaining the lower limit, I'd love to hear it, but the road infrastructure of Scotland, apart perhaps from the Highlands, is pretty comparable to that of England and Wales, and the existence of the many single-track roads in the Highlands is no reason to constrain traffic in the rest of the country.
Also, it must be said, the 40mph HGV speed limit has to be the most widely flouted speed limit or road regulation ever introduced. Even before the increase from 40 to 50mph in England and Wales you very rarely saw HGVs doing anything other than 56mph unless they were physically unable (going up hill or unsuitable roads), or had their limiters set lower (fuel economy reasons). The chances of being caught were very low, especially in rural Wales where the "problem" was tolerated as the alternative would be considerably more traffic congestion due to fewer overtaking opportunities.

Going from a 40mph to a 50mph limit simply formalised what had been going on for years beforehand. Scotland, for whatever reason, has decided not to follow England and Wales in doing this. Now this could be due to certain political pressures, or even the fact that Scotland has a much higher percentage of S1 routes (including some trunk routes) that they don't want HGVs barrelling down at 50, however as I believe that without ANPR-based average speed monitoring systems you need "in person" enforcement to fine HGV speed limits (IIRC none of the fixed cameras can be set to recognise different vehicle classes) the chances of being stopped in the Highlands are probably very low.
My experience of S1 routes in Scotland is that, quite apart from being narrow, with the consequent constant need to review whether you might need to stop and back up for opposing traffic to pass, they are rarely straight enough to allow *any* traffic to travel at 50 or more for any length of time. They may be NSL, but that's an irrelevance in the real world. Using them as an excuse not to raise the speed limit for lorries, if that *is* actually the reason cited, is frankly daft.
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rhyds
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Re: 70mph signs in Scotland

Post by rhyds »

Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:47My experience of S1 routes in Scotland is that, quite apart from being narrow, with the consequent constant need to review whether you might need to stop and back up for opposing traffic to pass, they are rarely straight enough to allow *any* traffic to travel at 50 or more for any length of time. They may be NSL, but that's an irrelevance in the real world. Using them as an excuse not to raise the speed limit for lorries, if that *is* actually the reason cited, is frankly daft.
When I did the NC500 there were a lot of very long, very flat S1s with very good sightlines and I thought I was doing well managing around 50-55. I checked my mirror and saw that a Scottish Water Toyota Hilux was bearing down on me, so I used a passing place to let him by, and decided to see if I could keep up. I chickened out at 70...
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Re: 70mph signs in Scotland

Post by Chris Bertram »

rhyds wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:49
Chris Bertram wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:47My experience of S1 routes in Scotland is that, quite apart from being narrow, with the consequent constant need to review whether you might need to stop and back up for opposing traffic to pass, they are rarely straight enough to allow *any* traffic to travel at 50 or more for any length of time. They may be NSL, but that's an irrelevance in the real world. Using them as an excuse not to raise the speed limit for lorries, if that *is* actually the reason cited, is frankly daft.
When I did the NC500 there were a lot of very long, very flat S1s with very good sightlines and I thought I was doing well managing around 50-55. I checked my mirror and saw that a Scottish Water Toyota Hilux was bearing down on me, so I used a passing place to let him by, and decided to see if I could keep up. I chickened out at 70...
Well, I did say "rarely", not "never".
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Re: 70mph signs in Scotland

Post by Nwallace »

rhyds wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:49 When I did the NC500 there were a lot of very long, very flat S1s with very good sightlines and I thought I was doing well managing around 50-55. I checked my mirror and saw that a Scottish Water Toyota Hilux was bearing down on me, so I used a passing place to let him by, and decided to see if I could keep up. I chickened out at 70...
Sounds about right.
The Royal Mail fitted speed limiters, much to detriment of speed of service...


The 50mph trial on the A9 was to be followed up by a study and report to inform a decision on whether to go for it on other single carriageway roads.
Can't remember if the Holyrood committee ever got round to looking at it.
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Re: 70mph signs in Scotland

Post by rhyds »

Nwallace wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 23:06
rhyds wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:49 When I did the NC500 there were a lot of very long, very flat S1s with very good sightlines and I thought I was doing well managing around 50-55. I checked my mirror and saw that a Scottish Water Toyota Hilux was bearing down on me, so I used a passing place to let him by, and decided to see if I could keep up. I chickened out at 70...
Sounds about right.
The Royal Mail fitted speed limiters, much to detriment of speed of service...


The 50mph trial on the A9 was to be followed up by a study and report to inform a decision on whether to go for it on other single carriageway roads.
Can't remember if the Holyrood committee ever got round to looking at it.
In my experience the hierarchy of road speed went, from slowest to fastest:

Camper Vans
Cyclists
Tourists
Locals
Post Vans
Utility Vans
RAF Fighter Jets
Litte old ladies in Subaru Foresters
Built for comfort, not speed.
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Re: 70mph signs in Scotland

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 08:57
Nwallace wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 23:35
Glenn A wrote: Surely this adds to businesses costs and causes congestion. However, if Scotland insist on this draconian and outdated speed limit so be it,
It's not like the limit has been dropped.
It's not exactly the best of roads either.
I'm sure it has its slower sections, where even cars would struggle to get much above 40, but it's had quite a few improvements over the years, including straightenings and bypasses, and on these sections it would be quite reasonable for HGVs to get up to 50 - but they're not allowed to! I suggest that, to pick a comparable road, it's no worse, and maybe better, than A40 between Fishguard and St Clears, where the raised limit does apply to HGVs.

If the Scottish government does have a very good reason for retaining the lower limit, I'd love to hear it, but the road infrastructure of Scotland, apart perhaps from the Highlands, is pretty comparable to that of England and Wales, and the existence of the many single-track roads in the Highlands is no reason to constrain traffic in the rest of the country.
My experiences of several holidays in Dumfries & Galloway is that the de-facto limit for HGVs on the A75 is about 65 mph - certainly faster than my car cruising at 60 !!!

I think Scotland is justified in not increasing the HGV limit generally but there are other single carriageway roads besides the A9 which are good enough to be increased to 50.
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Re: 70mph signs in Scotland

Post by AndyB »

Pragmatically, all they and NI have done is retain the status quo.

The way to abolish the 70mph sign is of course to repeal section 86(6) and amend Schedule 6 of RTRA 1984 to match NI legislation
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