Making Irish road signs more Irish.

[Bfivethousand]

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/g ... 36922.html

Will take a closer look after work - looks a huge improvement on existing signing though.

[roadtester]

Quite like the look of that.

[nowster]

The font looks a bit like Verdana.

[Vierwielen]

Bilingual road signs always pose problems, whether they be in Ireland, Wales, South Africa or Belgium. While it is acceptable to have different ways of displaying text that is in different languages - in this case "Corcaigh" is displayed in white while its English equivalent "Cork" is displayed in yellow, how does one display text that serves both languages? In this case, the text "M8" was in yellow.

Suth Africa had a system of alternating English and Afrikaans language signs for example "Cape Town" and "Kaapstad" appeared on alternate signs (in the same font and colour), but "Johannesburg" was the same in both languages.

I don't know what the solution is, but I do know that whatever one does, feathers will be ruffled.

[Chris Bertram]

Bilingual road signs always pose problems, whether they be in Ireland, Wales, South Africa or Belgium. While it is acceptable to have different ways of displaying text that is in different languages - in this case "Corcaigh" is displayed in white while its English equivalent "Cork" is displayed in yellow, how does one display text that serves both languages? In this case, the text "M8" was in yellow.

Suth Africa had a system of alternating English and Afrikaans language signs for example "Cape Town" and "Kaapstad" appeared on alternate signs (in the same font and colour), but "Johannesburg" was the same in both languages.

I don't know what the solution is, but I do know that whatever one does, feathers will be ruffled.

It's arguable that the Welsh solution (both languages shown in in the same font, size and colour) is, according to taste, the best, or the worst. The best (according to Welsh language campaigners) because it accords the languages equal status (actually Welsh is now given top spot on all new signs, which probably pleases them more). Or the worst (from the beancounter PoV) because of the increased space required, which means greater costs of materials, even more so because the equal size/same colour requirement means that place names have to be paired, and a space inserted between pairs of placenames. Differentiating, either by font or by colour, would at least allow that space to be dispensed with. And the increased time for drivers to absorb all the information and process it has been argued to have road safety implications.

[exiled]

Bilingual road signs always pose problems, whether they be in Ireland, Wales, South Africa or Belgium. While it is acceptable to have different ways of displaying text that is in different languages - in this case "Corcaigh" is displayed in white while its English equivalent "Cork" is displayed in yellow, how does one display text that serves both languages? In this case, the text "M8" was in yellow.

Suth Africa had a system of alternating English and Afrikaans language signs for example "Cape Town" and "Kaapstad" appeared on alternate signs (in the same font and colour), but "Johannesburg" was the same in both languages.

I don't know what the solution is, but I do know that whatever one does, feathers will be ruffled.

It's arguable that the Welsh solution (both languages shown in in the same font, size and colour) is, according to taste, the best, or the worst. The best (according to Welsh language campaigners) because it accords the languages equal status (actually Welsh is now given top spot on all new signs, which probably pleases them more). Or the worst (from the beancounter PoV) because of the increased space required, which means greater costs of materials, even more so because the equal size/same colour requirement means that place names have to be paired, and a space inserted between pairs of placenames. Differentiating, either by font or by colour, would at least allow that space to be dispensed with. And the increased time for drivers to absorb all the information and process it has been argued to have road safety implications.

All the tests re readability of bilingual signs, Belgium does not have bilingual signs, only in Brussels and a few small other areas are they bilingual shows no noticeable difference in readability or time to read them. As long as the basic rules are followed.

Consistent, equal, distinct.

These signs (article from 2013 btw) follow the new Scottish model which is this trio. The issue in Wales is the lack of clear distinction to those unfamiliar, and hardly impacts the readability at all as they are equal and consistent.

[Bfivethousand]

(article from 2013 btw)

That's curious, the publication date (alongside the author's name) on the version I saw was today...

So, does that mean that there are by now a handful of signs such as this in place?

[nowster]

It now says " Paul Melia November 8 2013 2:00 AM" on the by-line.

[J N Winkler]

It's arguable that the Welsh solution (both languages shown in in the same font, size and colour) is, according to taste, the best, or the worst. The best (according to Welsh language campaigners) because it accords the languages equal status (actually Welsh is now given top spot on all new signs, which probably pleases them more). Or the worst (from the beancounter PoV) because of the increased space required, which means greater costs of materials, even more so because the equal size/same colour requirement means that place names have to be paired, and a space inserted between pairs of placenames. Differentiating, either by font or by colour, would at least allow that space to be dispensed with. And the increased time for drivers to absorb all the information and process it has been argued to have road safety implications.

The Welsh approach is more space-efficient and arguably also more elegant than using slashes or ruled lines to separate the languages within bilingual name pairs, as is prescribed in Spain and Switzerland, and is the norm in Canada.

When bilingual signing was being implemented in Wales shortly after the Worboys signs were rolled out, the following options were considered and rejected:

* Welsh in all-uppercase (similar to Irish in Ireland)

* Same style for both Welsh and English, with brackets connecting Welsh and English in bilingual name pairs (no brackets where the same name does duty as both Welsh and English)

* Welsh against brown background (would not have worked well with brown-background tourist signing, which was not introduced until the late 1970's)

* Different color for Welsh (the option later chosen for Scottish Gaelic placenames in Scotland)

Since part of the motivation was to prevent repeated sign replacement due to vandalism (presumed to be by language activists), the preferred solution was one that kept Welsh and English on the same footing. But TRRL research in the early 1970's did show that sign reading times for native speakers of a given language increased greatly when that language was shown last in bilingual name pairs. This was the original motivation for the old policy of dividing Wales into English-priority and Welsh-priority local authority areas for signing purposes according to the relative prevalence of native Welsh speakers in each area. (I had and still have great doubts about eliminating this system in favor of Welsh priority everywhere. Welsh is no longer classified as an endangered language, unlike its Celtic language cousins such as Breton or the Irish and Scottish varieties of Gaelic, but has it really recovered that much?)

(National Archives file MT 112/351 covers the Ministry debate over bilingual signing in Wales.)

All the tests re readability of bilingual signs, Belgium does not have bilingual signs, only in Brussels and a few small other areas are they bilingual shows no noticeable difference in readability or time to read them. As long as the basic rules are followed.

In very rough terms, there are two basic approaches to bilingualism in signing. That followed by Wales, and by French-language areas in Canada outside Québec, is to be bilingual everywhere. In contradistinction, in countries like Switzerland, Belgium, Finland, Spain, and Québec, the norm is for signing to be monolingual in the language of the region, with bilingualism limited to contact territory (e.g. around Bern in Switzerland), areas with mixed population (areas in Finland with relatively high percentages of Swedish speakers), or areas serving certain functions (e.g., transport terminals in Spain, federal government property in Canada).

[exiled]

Since part of the motivation was to prevent repeated sign replacement due to vandalism (presumed to be by language activists), the preferred solution was one that kept Welsh and English on the same footing. But TRRL research in the early 1970's did show that sign reading times for native speakers of a given language increased greatly when that language was shown last in bilingual name pairs. This was the original motivation for the old policy of dividing Wales into English-priority and Welsh-priority local authority areas for signing purposes according to the relative prevalence of native Welsh speakers in each area. (I had and still have great doubts about eliminating this system in favor of Welsh priority everywhere. Welsh is no longer classified as an endangered language, unlike its Celtic language cousins such as Breton or the Irish and Scottish varieties of Gaelic, but has it really recovered that much?)

(National Archives file MT 112/351 covers the Ministry debate over bilingual signing in Wales.)

All the tests re readability of bilingual signs, Belgium does not have bilingual signs, only in Brussels and a few small other areas are they bilingual shows no noticeable difference in readability or time to read them. As long as the basic rules are followed.

In very rough terms, there are two basic approaches to bilingualism in signing. That followed by Wales, and by French-language areas in Canada outside Québec, is to be bilingual everywhere. In contradistinction, in countries like Switzerland, Belgium, Finland, Spain, and Québec, the norm is for signing to be monolingual in the language of the region, with bilingualism limited to contact territory (e.g. around Bern in Switzerland), areas with mixed population (areas in Finland with relatively high percentages of Swedish speakers), or areas serving certain functions (e.g., transport terminals in Spain, federal government property in Canada).

I wonder if this is due to that there being few examples at the time where countries were fully bilingual but where languages used the same script. Cyprus signs in Greek and English, but they are different scripts and the official languages are Greek and Turkish.

Belgium was officially francophone only until the 20th C despite being majority Dutch speaking from day one in 1830. The others are as Belgium is today nationally bilingual, locally monolingual. Certainly some languages are suffering, such as Luxembourgish, by not being on the signs.

In practice Wales is probably the first good attempt, the move to Welsh first nationally corrects the consistency element, but the colour would have helped.

[JohnnyMo]

I found the existing Irish signs the best, consistent different font, while the Welsh system the worst.

Whether it is because I'm dyslexic or not I don't know but my brain can filter by font, I expect I could also filter by colour. What I see is a road sign just in English with an abstract pattern almost where the Irish is.

In Wales I need to process everything and then discard the Welsh.

[J N Winkler]

I wonder if this is due to that there being few examples at the time where countries were fully bilingual but where languages used the same script. Cyprus signs in Greek and English, but they are different scripts and the official languages are Greek and Turkish.

When the Bowen committee was considering the pros and cons of bilingual signs in 1971-72, the members paid very close attention to Finland and Switzerland, and unsuccessfully sought detailed information from Canada. The Finns at the time had the most sophisticated system--monolingual Finnish for heavily Finnish-speaking areas, bilingual (Finnish first) for mixed areas (Finnish dominant), bilingual (Swedish first) for mixed areas (Swedish dominant), and monolingual Swedish for heavily Swedish-speaking areas (already by then only a microscopic fraction of Finland's total land area). But the committee was told that as the signing system was effectively mandated by the Finnish constitution, no studies into its effectiveness had been undertaken. So Rutley's reports for the TRRL may very well have been the first systematic investigation of this kind. (National Archives file FCO 76/360 covers the Foreign Office's end of the Bowen committee's investigations. There was eventually some pushback from Foreign Office mandarins along the lines of "This committee is bothering the Finns and must be told to desist.")

In practice Wales is probably the first good attempt, the move to Welsh first nationally corrects the consistency element, but the colour would have helped.

There is recent research (TRL report PPR589) into the road safety impacts of bilingual signing in Scotland. It is based on survey questionnaires containing photo samples of monolingual and bilingual signs. The photos suggest that there has been some attempt to copy the Welsh practice of adding 3 sw vertically between placename blocks to allow bilingual name pairs to be better distinguished, but this is far from universal and many of the Scottish signs have a "stripey" look.

For England I have found the DfT traffic authorizations database and the occasional set of tender drawings helpful in getting a sense of current practice in direction signing. But the Celts in the UK don't have their own online databases and, with the exception of drawings included in planning applications (notably Inverness western link), seem very allergic to putting tender drawings online. (With Ireland it's a different story--the firehose is there if you want to drink from it.)

[Worcestershire Wolf]

The article is from November 2013, did anything actually arise out of this?

Leo Varadker the then Transport Minister is of course now the Taoiseach

[Conekicker]

I do wonder about the need for bi-lingual signing in the UK. Can there really be ANY Welsh or Scots person who does not speak/read English, at least sufficiently well to be able to understand a mono-lingual traffic sign?

Even if there were some, is it a valid and proper expenditure of the public purse to install bi-lingual signs for what, at best, is a tiny number of people? It would be interesting to know how much extra bi-lingual signing costs, taking into account the larger sign face area, longer/larger posts and bigger foundations required to install these things.

Traffic signs should be installed for valid road safety purposes and not to make a political statement.

[exiled]

I do wonder about the need for bi-lingual signing in the UK. Can there really be ANY Welsh or Scots person who does not speak/read English, at least sufficiently well to be able to understand a mono-lingual traffic sign?

Even if there were some, is it a valid and proper expenditure of the public purse to install bi-lingual signs for what, at best, is a tiny number of people? It would be interesting to know how much extra bi-lingual signing costs, taking into account the larger sign face area, longer/larger posts and bigger foundations required to install these things.

Traffic signs should be installed for valid road safety purposes and not to make a political statement.

Expenditure, virtually nothing significant, the cost is in the installation. Road safety, as the then Scottish Executive found, no issues on safety.

Most of the objections about bilingual signs are about the existence of the minority language.

[Nwallace]

Most "English" names in use in Scotland are just transliterated Gaelic names with the odd Scots name thrown in (with limited need to transliterate since they are different developments of Middle English), in the Lothians which is really the only part of Scotland you can ever claim with some truth didn't speak Gaelic since it was part of Northumbria that somehow came under Scottish control.

There is then the odd oddity like Kinneuchar which is signed as transliterated into English from Gaelic, Kilconquhar is Cill Conchad.
And there's places like Dingwall where the town name retains the Norse name in official usage but the Gaelic is different.

So since any idiot can work out where Cille Mheàrnaig is just by learning to read, we can ditch English...

[Berk]

(^^Kilmarnock. Didn’t even need to look it up. )

Or what about Baile Bhúirne on the road signs, when you see something else entirely on Google before you get there...

[Chris Bertram]

So since any idiot can work out where Cille Mheàrnaig is just by learning to read, we can ditch English...

Yeah, right. What do local Killie residents call it? I sense a fetish for disinterring obsolete spellings of placenames. Maybe we should try it in England, I look forward to seeing the reaction to Beormingahame and Heantun appearing on roadsigns.

[exiled]

So since any idiot can work out where Cille Mheàrnaig is just by learning to read, we can ditch English...

Yeah, right. What do local Killie residents call it? I sense a fetish for disinterring obsolete spellings of placenames. Maybe we should try it in England, I look forward to seeing the reaction to Beormingahame and Heantun appearing on roadsigns.

And some will call it Cille Mhearnaig. I'd love to pop into the parallel universe where the Angevin Empire never fell and the campaigns to get English or Danish on the signs are being preempted by 'every one speaks French'.

[Chris Bertram]

So since any idiot can work out where Cille Mheàrnaig is just by learning to read, we can ditch English...

Yeah, right. What do local Killie residents call it? I sense a fetish for disinterring obsolete spellings of placenames. Maybe we should try it in England, I look forward to seeing the reaction to Beormingahame and Heantun appearing on roadsigns.

And some will call it Cille Mhearnaig.

OK, so because quite a few of the students and fellows of Jesus College speak Welsh, should we sign Oxford as "Rhydychen"?

When politics - and these language issues *are* politics, make no mistake - start impacting on road safety, I think we need to start questioning the priorities of those making the decisions.