New Irish Traffic Signs Manual 2019

[Conekicker]

https://www.trafficsigns.ie/

A nice set of documents, coupled with a set of Working Drawings in several formats.

[A303Chris]

Had a quick read through over lunch and seems so much easier to follow than ours. Two queries.

Why do Ireland use yellow diamonds for warning signs similar to the USA and Australia and not red warning triangles like the rest of Europe?

Secondly in volume 2, Figure 2.2.3 refers to Motorway, National Primary and National Secondary. Are the National Primary , trunk roads maintained by the state and National Secondary, like our green backed primary roads but maintained by the Local Authority?

[Johnathan404]

It's not without its issues. 4.7 says there is no need for the 24 hour symbol on motorway fuel pumps, gives a table which explicitly shows that there is no such symbol, and then gives three example drawings all of which use the symbol that apparently doesn't exist!

Would be nice if they had a crackdown on overloaded VMSs too, especially on motorways.

[Conekicker]

I see that the "definitely NOT" UK-style arrowhead on all of the temporary signs in Chapter 8 (except supplementary plate P 002) have now changed to the UK style arrowhead. At variance to the permanent warning signs in Chapter 6, which retain the Irish-style arrowhead. Nothing like a bit of consistency, is there?

There are now square shaped temporary wicket signs alongside the diamond shaped ones, I haven't figured out yet if there's any difference as to how the two shapes are supposed to be used.

There's also a new permanent warning sign in Chapter 6 for a LILO, W 034, which looks quite nice.

The Working Drawings webpage takes some time to load. Goodness knows what version of AutoCAD the DWG files have been saved as, they won't open on my machine.

[Johnathan404]

There's also a new permanent warning sign in Chapter 6 for a LILO, W 034, which looks quite nice.

There's loads of these already in action, including along the M7.

What I can't work out is whether the diamond warning showing about four junctions on the same sign is permitted or not.

[Conekicker]

There's also a new permanent warning sign in Chapter 6 for a LILO, W 034, which looks quite nice.

There's loads of these already in action, including along the M7.

What I can't work out is whether the diamond warning showing about four junctions on the same sign is permitted or not.

Hmmm, does it look a little bit like a lane drop/lane gain in some respects, given the width of yellow around the arrows?

[yen_powell]

The Working Drawings webpage takes some time to load. Goodness knows what version of AutoCAD the DWG files have been saved as, they won't open on my machine.

I managed to open one using my 2016 AutoCAD so it's no newer than that.

[Vierwielen]

In addition to the use of km, km/h and yellow diamonds, I notice that the Irish Traffic Signs Manual uses the 24 hour clock (pages 5/38 and 5/43) whereas the TSRGD 2019 appears to use the 12 hour clock throughout (the use of teh 12 hour clock is mandated on page 543 of the TSRGD 2016. In my view, adding the qualifiers "am" or "pm" adds to the clutter, as does the permitted use of the words “Midnight”, “M’night”, “Midday” or “Noon” .

The use of the 24-hour clock in Ireland has the advantage that "am" and "pm" do not need to appear in both English and Irish (which would add to the clutter).

For the record, the time "24:00" should never be used on the 24-hour clock. By convention, anything that ends at midnight has the time shown as "23:59" and anything that starts at midnight has the tie shown as "00:00".

[Viator]

For the record, the time "24:00" should never be used on the 24-hour clock. By convention, anything that ends at midnight has the time shown as "23:59" and anything that starts at midnight has the tie shown as "00:00".

That is certainly not a universal convention. 24.00 is very widely used as a finishing time; in particular, European railway timetables in general (both national and international) use 24.00 for arrival at midnight and 0.00 for departure at midnight. (Network Rail -- just to be different! -- ignores midnight altogether in its public timetables: it skips from 23.59 to 0.01.)

[Viator]

Are the National Primary , trunk roads maintained by the state and National Secondary, like our green backed primary roads but maintained by the Local Authority?

No, all National Roads (which includes motorways) are a national responsibility. The primary and secondary distinction relates to strategic and funding-priority considerations, but not to overall responsibility. All roads with an N prefix have green-backed waymarking (and those with an M prefix have blue), not forgetting, however, that the M11, for instance, is a part of the N11.

[AndyB]

The maintenance of many National roads is contracted out to the local authorities, but they're still managed by the NTA.

Warning signs are yellow diamonds because they could in 1957. Were red triangles already established in mainland Europe by then?

[Viator]

Warning signs are yellow diamonds because they could in 1957.

Indeed -- although they're still permissible under the 1978 Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals.

Were red triangles already established in mainland Europe by then?

Yes. Most mainland European countries had already adopted the triangle as the standard shape for warning signs by the end of the 1920s -- though colour schemes continued to differ from country to country for many years (and still do to some extent).

[Bryn666]

Warning signs are yellow diamonds because they could in 1957.

Indeed -- although they're still permissible under the 1978 Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals.

Were red triangles already established in mainland Europe by then?

Yes. Most mainland European countries had already adopted the triangle as the standard shape for warning signs by the end of the 1920s -- though colour schemes continued to differ from country to country for many years (and still do to some extent).

A lot of Irish road design mimics US practice, such as the hard shoulders on single carriageways, so it is no surprise that the decision was taken to go for 'new world' signing - see also the fact Ireland used the red border/strikethrough distinction for compulsory signs.

[Viator]

A lot of Irish road design mimics US practice, such as the hard shoulders on single carriageways, so it is no surprise that the decision was taken to go for 'new world' signing - see also the fact Ireland used the red border/strikethrough distinction for compulsory signs.

The use of red-bordered-disc symbology in US regulatory signage dates from very much later than 1957, however. I'd say that the influence in this area has been very much Transatlantic east-to-west. American regulatory signage has traditionally used black-on-white words on rectangular signs (SPEED LIMIT 55, DO NOT PASS, NO MOTOR VEHICLES, etc.) -- even now "circular" signs such as (pictorial) NO BICYCLES still appear on rectangular boards.

I remember hearing it explained by a US highway engineer many years ago that, for reasons of economy in production (low-cost tessellation) all early signs were square wherever possible -- and it was a genius who one day had the idea that hazard-warning signs could be made super-distinctive by simply turning the square through 45 degrees.

I've no doubt you're right about the part US norms played when Ireland first began seriously modernizing its roads -- but I think we shouldn't discount the influence of Australian practice either. There has been a history of Hiberno-Australian cross-fertilization in the civil-engineering area: there are still well over 3000 km of Irish-gauge (1600 mm) railways in Australia, principally in Victoria. And the design of Irish "broad" single carriageways is often very reminiscent of that of many roads in Australia and NZ.

One very obvious difference between Irish and US practice is the use of yellow edge lining: in both cases on the left of the direction of travel, but clearly with a very different meaning! I'm surprised that this never seems to be mentioned in Americans' accounts of "what it was like driving in Ireland".

[nowster]

I remember hearing it explained by a US highway engineer many years ago that, for reasons of economy in production (low-cost tessellation) all early signs were square wherever possible -- and it was a genius who one day had the idea that hazard-warning signs could be made super-distinctive by simply turning the square through 45 degrees.

Triangles Tessellate Too!

[Viator]

I remember hearing it explained by a US highway engineer many years ago that, for reasons of economy in production (low-cost tessellation) all early signs were square wherever possible -- and it was a genius who one day had the idea that hazard-warning signs could be made super-distinctive by simply turning the square through 45 degrees.

Triangles Tessellate Too!

I know, but there are still 120°- 30°- 30° and/or 90°- 60°- 30° bits wastefully left over from the rectangular base-sheet once you're done!

[Vierwielen]

For the record, the time "24:00" should never be used on the 24-hour clock. By convention, anything that ends at midnight has the time shown as "23:59" and anything that starts at midnight has the tie shown as "00:00".

That is certainly not a universal convention. 24.00 is very widely used as a finishing time; in particular, European railway timetables in general (both national and international) use 24.00 for arrival at midnight and 0.00 for departure at midnight. (Network Rail -- just to be different! -- ignores midnight altogether in its public timetables: it skips from 23.59 to 0.01.)

From what you say, it apears that 24:00 is used when accuracy to within a minute is required, and also possibly to show that the operation is part of the previous day's operation. From what I have seen, airlines (outside the US) round take off and arrival times to the nearest five minutes, except for those around mid-night where the 23:59, 00:01 convention is used. I first noticed this convention when I was living in South Africa and many overnight flights to Europe had a stop-over somewhere in Africa, sometimes around mid-night. In the US however, it appears that they often use 12-hour clock.

[Viator]

From what you say, it apears that 24:00 is used when accuracy to within a minute is required, and also possibly to show that the operation is part of the previous day's operation.

Yes, that second consideration [my italics] is the principal one when it comes to railway timetables.

As a footnight -- and apologies: yes, this is getting rather far away from Irish traffic signs! -- I've noticed that it's conventional in Japan to display the opening hours of very late-opening restaurants and the like with such indications as 19:30～25:30 !

[odlum]

[Truvelo]

I had the impression that Ireland adopted yellow diamond warning signs to differentiate itself from the UK after independence.