Driver Location Signs

[DanT97]

You know those driver location signs in England? The ones with 427.2 or some other number like that? Well, here’s an idea; why don’t Transport Scotland install some on my side of the border. I think motorways such as the M74, the M8 and the M77 could benefit from such things. Do you not think you should agree with this line of thinking? I do believe that the existing marker posts are to small or read and are often missing or damaged in addition to that. Driver Location Signs are mush taller and larger, so they are easier to read and are pretty much immune to vandalism. Why not put them up? What are your thoughts?

Ps, why do Transport Scotland always lag behind the English authority in terms of emergency response and motorway management? Our roads seem very backward in comparison to English ones?
Pps, could someone PLEASE sort out the M74/A74(M) discrepancy, it’s doing my head in!?
Ppps, I strongly advise use of the A82 and A9 in the Highlands. These roads are beautiful, and no English road can even come close; not even in the Lake District or the Yorkshire Dales.

[avtur]

Given the rapid progress of phone technology and the ability to identify a caller's location then I'm not sure that we're likely to see much, if any, effort put into roadside location identification markings.

Now I know that it is wrong to presume that everyone carries a smartphone but the plain truth of the matter is that the vast majority do so it is not unreasonable to expect that this will drive how we deal with the need to identify a driver's location.

[stevepuma]

And with the development of apps like What3Words that the emergency services are taking up and are also now starting to be built into vehicles, far more accurate than "between marker posts"...

Ps if you haven't tried the app, it's probably worth a look...

[RichardA35]

Given the rapid progress of phone technology and the ability to identify a caller's location then I'm not sure that we're likely to see much, if any, effort put into roadside location identification markings.

Now I know that it is wrong to presume that everyone carries a smartphone but the plain truth of the matter is that the vast majority do so it is not unreasonable to expect that this will drive how we deal with the need to identify a driver's location.

Separating major roads and motorways for a moment, these are referenced using a marker post locations that overlay onto GIS systems. The key thing is to understand which carriageway an emergency is on and how to get emergency services to that location. A triangulation off cell towers that solely gives location won't quite cut the mustard.
As for stopping and opening an app and finding and quoting 3 random words - that is slower than phoning and saying what is in front of your eyes e.g. "lorry fire M3 northbound carriageway marker post 140/6" and doesn't give clarity about the incident just the location.
On more minor roads it probably has its place where location is more important given the scarcity of resources but on the major networks I have my doubts and marker posts/driver location signs will be with us for a long time.

[WHBM]

I've asked several (non-engineer) colleagues what these signs are, when travelling along motorways. None had the slightest idea they might have any relevance to them, or what they were. They don't appear to be shown in the "Information Signs" bit of the Highway Code.

[avtur]

.... As for stopping and opening an app and finding and quoting 3 random words - that is slower than phoning and saying what is in front of your eyes e.g. "lorry fire M3 northbound carriageway marker post 140/6" and doesn't give clarity about the incident just the location.....

Although I didn't bring What 3 Words into the conversation it is an app that I use, I can open the app and read the 3-word code in less than 10 seconds. To me, that is somewhat quicker than finding the nearest mile marker post, the mile marker post will only be "in front of my eyes" if I stop next to it, that may be an option if reporting an incident but will not be the case if I have broken down.

The 3-metre accuracy of W3W is sufficient to determine which side of a carriageway you might be located on. There is a reason why emergency services are promoting the use of W3W.

[Debaser]

I've asked several (non-engineer) colleagues what these signs are, when travelling along motorways. None had the slightest idea they might have any relevance to them, or what they were. They don't appear to be shown in the "Information Signs" bit of the Highway Code.

And of course they're not actually in the TSRGD.

[Viator]

Well, I like them -- and their Irish equivalents -- simply because they give me the opportunity, every 500 m or so, to be sure how far along the road I've travelled and do a quick recalculation, should I so wish, of my ETA. No app necessary, other than the old eyes-plus-brain combo.

Perhaps it also has something to do with my experience of driving sur le continent -- and, to a lesser extent, in the US -- where road distance markers are far more generally used, and on all kinds of roads.

[nowster]

The emergency services doesn't need What3Words at all. Their advertising is misleading. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Mobile_Location

[Nathan_A_RF]

I've asked several (non-engineer) colleagues what these signs are, when travelling along motorways. None had the slightest idea they might have any relevance to them, or what they were. They don't appear to be shown in the "Information Signs" bit of the Highway Code.

And of course they're not actually in the TSRGD.

The only place they are mentioned is in the "Know Your Traffic Signs" book, but even with frequent "updates" that book is so out of date now...

[AndyB]

What 3 words is unique to the lane, never mind the carriageway, and if the long sides of the car are not in separate squares, the front and back almost certainly will be. All other things being equal, it is no harm to have that unique reference.

DLS have the main advantage that they are unlikely to be missing, unlike marker posts, but the index on a marker post isn’t shown in the highway code - just a reference to the telephone symbol as I recall.

In the end, all the emergency services need to know is which carriageway and roughly how far between which junctions, and they don’t have that luxury on most AP roads.

[Chris5156]

Given the rapid progress of phone technology and the ability to identify a caller's location then I'm not sure that we're likely to see much, if any, effort put into roadside location identification markings.

Driver Location Signs were created precisely because of mobile phone technology. Drivers were increasingly calling emergency services from mobile phones, which meant they had to describe their location to the operator rather than the operator being able to trace their location according to the roadside emergency phone they were using.

The point of DLS is that, with no other technology, proprietary geolocation system or geographic knowledge required, the conversation goes:
- Where are you?
- I'm on the M1 near Sheffield
- Can you see a small blue sign by the road side with yellow letters and numbers on it?
- Yes
- Can you read them out to me?
- It says M1 A 267.9

That is much easier (even with a bit more back-and-forth needed to get the caller to read out the right sign) than getting the caller to download and install a specific app or trying to triangulate the location of the call from cell towers. That's especially true if - as often happens - the call is from someone calling hands-free from a moving vehicle having just witnessed something while passing. That person can't open an app on their phone and the operator must rely on what the caller can tell them. On a motorway, they will pass another DLS within a few moments and can read it out.

The bottom line is that the emergency services don't need to know your location to within three metres' accuracy; they just need to know which road, which direction, and between which junctions, and the incident is then very easy to find.

[nowster]

Also bear in mind that 3m is the absolute best that a phone's GPS unit can do in the best clear sky conditions with EGNOS and up-to-date ephemera. If you plot the location of a static GPS unit over a period of time, it does a very drunken walk inside a radius of about 15m. (Serena giggled over this at the M6 anniversary meet-up.)

There is equipment that can get a more stable, accurate GPS fix, but that's nowhere cheap enough to be embedded in a mobile phone processor chip.

[avtur]

... The point of DLS is that, with no other technology, proprietary geolocation system or geographic knowledge required, the conversation goes:
- Where are you?
- I'm on the M1 near Sheffield
- Can you see a small blue sign by the road side with yellow letters and numbers on it?
- Yes
- Can you read them out to me?
- It says M1 A 267.9 ...

I take your point but there is an element of chance as to whether or not there is a distance marker within view. The last thing the emergency services want is people getting out of the vehicles and wander along the hard shoulder.

There is no definitive 'ideal' answer to identifying location but having a number of options has to be a good thing.

[jervi]

Last time I was on the phone to a 999 operator, I gave them the info on the Location Sign, and it's like they didn't know how to use it at all. They kept asking on what road, what direction between what junctions... Which is an issue because as it happens, I don't really pay attention to the junction numbers unless its my junction.

I'm not too sure whether emergency dispatchers have access to such information already, but maybe the way forward would be ANPR, the deployment of ANPR on the motorway network is fairly substantial already. If ANPR cameras could be put on every other gauntry (if they aren't already) and you could just tell the operator your car reg and they can at least pinpoint you down to what carriageway and within what mile of the motorway. Of course not everyone knows what their reg is, or if they are driving a work or hire car, but for the vast majority of people it would be useful.

Regarding W3W, I think it doesn't have its place for drivers, unless you are stationary. Of course British Law prevents you from driving while on your phone, except when calling emergency services, so if you are driving along and open up W3W, would that be an offence?
W3W is far more suited to rural locations where the best description of your location is "at a bend on a small road and there are some trees".

Also wondering if anyone knows if you can use lamppost numbers or telegraph poles number or powerline poles numbers as a use of finding the location when in a call with a 999 operator? I heard in some countries they do, but never here.

[avtur]

Regarding W3W, I think it doesn't have its place for drivers, unless you are stationary. Of course British Law prevents you from driving while on your phone, except when calling emergency services, so if you are driving along and open up W3W, would that be an offence?
W3W is far more suited to rural locations where the best description of your location is "at a bend on a small road and there are some trees".

Sorry, I think you're missing the point, most of the time the need for location is when the car is stationary, post-accident, breakdown etc ...

Also wondering if anyone knows if you can use lamppost numbers or telegraph poles number or powerline poles numbers as a use of finding the location when in a call with a 999 operator? I heard in some countries they do, but never here.

I think you've answered your own question in your opening paragraph when you explained that an emergency operator didn't understand mileage markers (which are specifically designed to aid location identification by motorists) so the chances of them understanding something more abstract such as telegraph or powerline poles is pretty remote.

[nowster]

I think you've answered your own question in your opening paragraph when you explained that an emergency operator didn't understand mileage markers (which are specifically designed to aid location identification by motorists) so the chances of them understanding something more...

...obscure such as What3Words™ is less likely.

[avtur]

I think you've answered your own question in your opening paragraph when you explained that an emergency operator didn't understand mileage markers (which are specifically designed to aid location identification by motorists) so the chances of them understanding something more...

...obscure such as What3Words™ is less likely.

But it is emergency responders who are suggesting it ...

[nowster]

...obscure such as What3Words™ is less likely.

But it is emergency responders who are suggesting it ...

No, it is W3W's adverts. The emergency responders should already have the GPS location of any smartphone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Mobile_Location

[DanT97]

Doesn’t anyone want to help me get these signs installed in Scotland?