Dodgy A1 speed limit

[fishface1983]

Ok guys, First ever post... I want to discuss the speed limit on the A1 between J38 Red House and J41 Darrington - note that this bit is NOT a motorway, but a regular bit of A1 between two (M) sections. The average person would say that this section would be subject to NSL, so 70mph in a car.

The Highway Code states that the presence of a series of street lighting indicates a speed limit of 30mph unless signs show otherwise. On a good proportion of this section of the A1, there is lots of street lighting (about 2-3miles worth), but to my knowledge, not a single NSL repeater. Therefore by definition, is this section of the A1 subject to a 30mph limit?

If the police were feeling that way out, could they just stop as many motorists as possible or use a mobile speed camera to issue tickets to anyone exceeding 30mph?

Your thoughts on this would be very interesting!

Nick

[Chris Bertram]

Ok guys, First ever post... I want to discuss the speed limit on the A1 between J38 Red House and J41 Darrington - note that this bit is NOT a motorway, but a regular bit of A1 between two (M) sections. The average person would say that this section would be subject to NSL, so 70mph in a car.

The Highway Code states that the presence of a series of street lighting indicates a speed limit of 30mph unless signs show otherwise. On a good proportion of this section of the A1, there is lots of street lighting (about 2-3miles worth), but to my knowledge, not a single NSL repeater. Therefore by definition, is this section of the A1 subject to a 30mph limit?

If the police were feeling that way out, could they just stop as many motorists as possible or use a mobile speed camera to issue tickets to anyone exceeding 30mph?

Your thoughts on this would be very interesting!

Nick

Well, you also need 30mph terminal signs at either end, and I don't think those are present either.

Here's a repeater near Skellow.

And here are NSL terminal signs at the exit from a side road in Skellow. The limit is 40 going the other way.

So I reckon the chances of the cops pulling people for exceeding 30 are nil. Sorry to disappoint.

But welcome to SABRE nevertheless!

[KeithW]

Well there was indeed some confusion over this which was clarified as follow.

However, Government guidance defines "street" and therefore "street lighting" in the following Department of Transport document: Manual for Streets (2007), and applies formally in England and Wales ( Gillian Merron MP Transport Minister; Baroness Andrews OBE Parliamentary Under Secretary of State Communities and Local Government; Tamsin Dunwoody AM Deputy Minister for Enterprise, Innovation and Networks Deputy Minister for Environment, Planning & Countryside):

1.1.7 For the purposes of this document, a street is defined as a highway that has important public realm functions beyond the movement of traffic. Most critically, streets should have a sense of place, which is mainly realised through local distinctiveness and sensitivity in design. They also provide direct access to the buildings and the spaces that line them. Most highways in built-up areas can therefore be considered as streets.

According to Department for Transport's Manual for Streets,[3] by definition, a "street" provides direct access to buildings and spaces that line them, in built-up areas. All roads and carriageways are not all "streets".

"Road lighting", as distinct from "street lighting", encompasses the lighting of all types of highway, public maintainable streets and roads. "Street lighting" is term-specific to "streets" – that is: to highways allowing direct access to buildings or spaces in built-up areas.

Therefore, the conclusion drawn above, should be considered specific to "streets", lit with "street lighting". Roads that cannot clearly be defined as "streets" should not be presumed to have a speed limit of 30 m.p.h., where no speed limit sign is in place.

British Standards on "Road Lighting" are contained in the following documents: BS EN13201-1-2004; BS 5489:1:2003[4]

So essentially there is a difference between roads and streets, that difference being that a street provides direct access to buildings.

[Chris Bertram]

Also between Barnsdale Bar and Darrington, there is no lighting, therefore NSL should be assumed anyway in the absence of signage to the contrary.

[jervi]

It depends on what the requirement or guidance was when the road was last modified (not necessarily renewed).
Current guidance in the Traffic Signs Manual Ch3 8.3.4 for a NSL Dual Carriageway is a 600mm sign every 600m, with the first being 450m after the terminal sign.
However, as I mentioned, if the road was last modified (lets say) in the 80s, then guidance back then may of been for 450mm signs every 2000m. (Don't know when this section of the A1 last got modified.)

[Chris Bertram]

Streetview suggests that there are not as many NSL repeaters on the lamp-posts as there should be. But a prosecution for exceeding 30mph would still fail, since the legislation for the speed limit on the road would show that it is a derestricted road, so the dual-carriageway NSL of 70 will apply.

[fishface1983]

So I reckon the chances of the cops pulling people for exceeding 30 are nil. Sorry to disappoint.

But welcome to SABRE nevertheless!

Far from disappointed, I drive at 70mph on that stretch multiple times a week (I live in Pontefract) so I'm glad I won't be getting any tickets in the post!

I'm teaching my eldest how to drive and we were talking about speed limits and the whole idea of "30mph in street lights unless signs show otherwise"... I then drove that stretch of the A1 between Barnsdale Bar and Red House where the lighting is, and couldn't see any NSL repeaters. And you know what it's like, my brain then started with the "what if...?"

Cheers for the welcome too!

[Conekicker]

There are certain aspects of the signing on that stretch that are... sub-optimal.
A scheme was designed more than a few years ago to address various issues which had been identified.
Sadly that was one signing scheme that never happened.

[Bryn666]

Well there was indeed some confusion over this which was clarified as follow.

However, Government guidance defines "street" and therefore "street lighting" in the following Department of Transport document: Manual for Streets (2007), and applies formally in England and Wales ( Gillian Merron MP Transport Minister; Baroness Andrews OBE Parliamentary Under Secretary of State Communities and Local Government; Tamsin Dunwoody AM Deputy Minister for Enterprise, Innovation and Networks Deputy Minister for Environment, Planning & Countryside):

1.1.7 For the purposes of this document, a street is defined as a highway that has important public realm functions beyond the movement of traffic. Most critically, streets should have a sense of place, which is mainly realised through local distinctiveness and sensitivity in design. They also provide direct access to the buildings and the spaces that line them. Most highways in built-up areas can therefore be considered as streets.

According to Department for Transport's Manual for Streets,[3] by definition, a "street" provides direct access to buildings and spaces that line them, in built-up areas. All roads and carriageways are not all "streets".

"Road lighting", as distinct from "street lighting", encompasses the lighting of all types of highway, public maintainable streets and roads. "Street lighting" is term-specific to "streets" – that is: to highways allowing direct access to buildings or spaces in built-up areas.

Therefore, the conclusion drawn above, should be considered specific to "streets", lit with "street lighting". Roads that cannot clearly be defined as "streets" should not be presumed to have a speed limit of 30 m.p.h., where no speed limit sign is in place.

British Standards on "Road Lighting" are contained in the following documents: BS EN13201-1-2004; BS 5489:1:2003[4]

So essentially there is a difference between roads and streets, that difference being that a street provides direct access to buildings.

Has the actual law been amended to reflect this? An all-purpose road with lighting is an all-purpose road with lighting, even if it's built to be driven at 70 mph, and to allow it a speed limit order has to be applied.

[crazyknightsfan]

I was wondering the exact same thing looking at the lit dual carriageways around Milton Keynes which I had read on here being described as NSL. In the absence of signs are they all 30mph due to the lighting?