TSRGD 1957

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Conekicker
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Re: TSRGD 1957

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And the remaining 2 parts of MT 801.
MT 801 part 4.pdf
(249.17 KiB) Downloaded 68 times
MT 801 part 5.pdf
(317.86 KiB) Downloaded 65 times
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Re: TSRGD 1957

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Conekicker wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 22:43 One of the other pre-Chapter 8 documents is MT 801. Unfortunately it's too big to upload as a single PDF, so I've had to split it into 5 files. First 3 attached. You can recombine them with Adolix Split and Merge PDF, a free download.
MT 801 part 2.pdfMT 801 part 3.pdfMT 801 part 1.pdf
Conekicker wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 22:44 And the remaining 2 parts of MT 801.
MT 801 part 4.pdf
MT 801 part 5.pdf
Excellent stuff, thanks very much for recreating and sharing those! That document is brilliantly brief, that's for sure.

In the section showing the contraflow layouts, I'm amazed by the sheer lack of anything closing lane three, other than the cones of the contraflow itself and a 'TWO WAY TRAFFIC' sign. Not even a blue arrow for good measure.
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Re: TSRGD 1957

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traffic-light-man wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 09:15
Conekicker wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 22:43 One of the other pre-Chapter 8 documents is MT 801. Unfortunately it's too big to upload as a single PDF, so I've had to split it into 5 files. First 3 attached. You can recombine them with Adolix Split and Merge PDF, a free download.
MT 801 part 2.pdfMT 801 part 3.pdfMT 801 part 1.pdf
Conekicker wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 22:44 And the remaining 2 parts of MT 801.
MT 801 part 4.pdfMT 801 part 5.pdf
Excellent stuff, thanks very much for recreating and sharing those! That document is brilliantly brief, that's for sure.

In the section showing the contraflow layouts, I'm amazed by the sheer lack of anything closing lane three, other than the cones of the contraflow itself and a 'TWO WAY TRAFFIC' sign. Not even a blue arrow for good measure.
It is well documented that early contraflows ended up as a bit of a disaster - the big problem was people binning their car/lorry in the taper area as police crossovers were used in the early days. It was well into the 70s when someone had the bright idea to actually construct a crossover for 50mph.
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Re: TSRGD 1957

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Bryn666 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 14:07 It is well documented that early contraflows ended up as a bit of a disaster - the big problem was people binning their car/lorry in the taper area as police crossovers were used in the early days. It was well into the 70s when someone had the bright idea to actually construct a crossover for 50mph.
You say that but I well remember being asked to comment (off the record thankfully), on the TM at the scene of a fatality at a contraflow in North Yorkshire in the late '90s. Some bright spark had used an emergency crossover as a 50mph one. 27m long, I ask you. Even making a start from the nearside lane, the length was no more than 60m. The deceased might have survived were it not for a lorry that, it was believed, that had recently refuelled a short way before the crossover and not properly fastened the fuel tank cap back on. Taking the crossover at the highest speed possible resulted in diesel slopping out all over the road. That and the fact the initial taper was grossly short, as was the length of nearside lane running before the entry crossover. The signing on the drawing I saw was "somewhat deficient" (cough) as well.

The contraflow drawing in MT801 is terrifying. Presumably operational experience quickly highlighted the problems but it took until '68 for the then Ministry of Transport to issue Circular Roads 26, which fixed some but by no means all of the issues in the MT801 layout.
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Re: TSRGD 1957

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Conekicker wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 20:39
Bryn666 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 14:07 It is well documented that early contraflows ended up as a bit of a disaster - the big problem was people binning their car/lorry in the taper area as police crossovers were used in the early days. It was well into the 70s when someone had the bright idea to actually construct a crossover for 50mph.
You say that but I well remember being asked to comment (off the record thankfully), on the TM at the scene of a fatality at a contraflow in North Yorkshire in the late '90s. Some bright spark had used an emergency crossover as a 50mph one. 27m long, I ask you. Even making a start from the nearside lane, the length was no more than 60m. The deceased might have survived were it not for a lorry that, it was believed, that had recently refuelled a short way before the crossover and not properly fastened the fuel tank cap back on. Taking the crossover at the highest speed possible resulted in diesel slopping out all over the road. That and the fact the initial taper was grossly short, as was the length of nearside lane running before the entry crossover. The signing on the drawing I saw was "somewhat deficient" (cough) as well.

The contraflow drawing in MT801 is terrifying. Presumably operational experience quickly highlighted the problems but it took until '68 for the then Ministry of Transport to issue Circular Roads 26, which fixed some but by no means all of the issues in the MT801 layout.
Strewth! It makes you wonder how some of these people manage to get out of bed in a morning let alone design anything. I still remember the era of roadworks happily using concrete blocks before Varioguard became a thing, some of which looked like they'd prevent any incursion into the working area at the cost of killing every single occupant in the vehicle.

It's interesting how the rest of the world barely goes to the lengths we do with crossovers, taper designs, amount of cones, signing, etc, at roadworks. Do we have a noticeably better safety record in roadworks as a result or does all the sign overload just mean people give up and drive into the back of the nearest IPV anyway?
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Re: TSRGD 1957

Post by AndyB »

In the early 1980s, NI was using wicket signs for lane closures, and by the late 80s they were using yellow signs for lane closures and contra flows. All well and good.

For motorway closures they used Other Danger without a supplementary plate (modern design), followed by Road Ahead Closed, DIVERT, and finally cones and ROAD CLOSED plus a Diversion sign into the two lane slip road. I only ever really saw this for off and on diversions to feed into contraflows.

Now at least I can see why it was done this way - going back thirty years earlier!
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Re: TSRGD 1957

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This is probably the longest of long shots but does anyone have a copy of:

Traffic cones at road works - GT 17/22/04 Pt 1.

that they could share please? I guess there might even be a Pt 2 (and 3, 4??).
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Re: TSRGD 1957

Post by Truvelo »

How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.
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Re: TSRGD 1957

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Truvelo wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 19:33 Looks like it won't be long now :roll:

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/abo ... us-update/
Excellent! :bounce:
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Re: TSRGD 1957

Post by pierre.hartmann88 »

I'm so excited!
I finally found the TSRGD 1957 online. Can't really believe it. It was a chance find.
Here's the link.
It starts on page 2015. 😍


https://books.google.de/books?id=tYhQAQ ... ns&f=false
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Re: TSRGD 1957

Post by traffic-light-man »

Excellent find, thanks for sharing!

Amongst some other things I don't think I'd seen before, one thing that struck me as particularly strange were the 'mandatory movement' road markings, with the straight arrows, rather than the now-typical lane guidance type arrows.
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Re: TSRGD 1957

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pierre.hartmann88 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 18:48 I'm so excited!
I finally found the TSRGD 1957 online. Can't really believe it. It was a chance find.
Here's the link.
It starts on page 2015. 😍


https://books.google.de/books?id=tYhQAQ ... ns&f=false
HOLY MOLY.
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Re: TSRGD 1957

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pierre.hartmann88 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 18:48 I'm so excited!
I finally found the TSRGD 1957 online. Can't really believe it. It was a chance find.
Here's the link.
It starts on page 2015. 😍


https://books.google.de/books?id=tYhQAQ ... ns&f=false
Oooo excellent find! Not only the 57 regs but also some amendments and Scottish stuff as well.

Well done that man! :msnthumbsup:

Edit: I've downloaded the file and PDFed the relevant pages, resulting in a 97 page document including the 57 regs, the amendments and speed limit regs. 21.5Mb of historical document. I wonder if there were any more amendments regs between 57 and the 64 one?
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Re: TSRGD 1957

Post by pierre.hartmann88 »

The best thing is to search for "statutory instruments traffic signs" using the book search.
There's an additional one from 1958 showing the introduction of the 40 mph sign (the red one with a white square and black lettering)
Unfortunately I couldn't find the amendment introducing that black 'Clearway' sign with split arrow. Would have been great for completion.
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Re: TSRGD 1957

Post by Truvelo »

All those lovely ADS signs in that online document and based on real signs rather than fictitious place names which is what happened from the 90s.

I can change my document order for Kew now.
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Re: TSRGD 1957

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I wonder if the one at Kew might have better images. Some of the signs in the scanned copy area bit "off". Diagrams 142-144, 151 and 165 for example. On the other hand, beggars can't be choosers :D
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Re: TSRGD 1957

Post by pierre.hartmann88 »

I also saved the manual as a PDF and edited it myself, i.e. I improved the colours, inserted colours where there were none, corrected errors, etc.
I have now sent it to a friend who will print it out and bind it for me. Who knows when I will find an original edition on eBay or somewhere else.
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Re: TSRGD 1957

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pierre.hartmann88 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 18:48I'm so excited!
I finally found the TSRGD 1957 online. Can't really believe it. It was a chance find.
Incredible! Thank you :D

Never seen this one before, but I'd like to see it back in use...
nearside.jpg
nearside.jpg (15.99 KiB) Viewed 2277 times
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Re: TSRGD 1957

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 09:08
pierre.hartmann88 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 18:48I'm so excited!
I finally found the TSRGD 1957 online. Can't really believe it. It was a chance find.
Incredible! Thank you :D

Never seen this one before, but I'd like to see it back in use...
nearside.jpg
That survived the 1964 TSRGD and I know of two examples still in use in North Yorkshire:

https://goo.gl/maps/u22qm4pJRAaa8NNr6
https://goo.gl/maps/ox4E8ZSyq26GkN9j6

It was originally intended for suicide lanes.
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pierre.hartmann88
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Re: TSRGD 1957

Post by pierre.hartmann88 »

The Worboys report tells us:

Keep to nearside lane except when overtaking (Regs. 410)
As this should be a general rule for all driving we hope that this sign can soon cease to be used. But so long as it is required we see no alternative to its being expressed in words, which should be in white capital letters on a blue ground.

And see, it's still out there.
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