Are these signals legal?

[Skipsy]

This is the only case I know where people turning left can be blocked because of cars waiting for the right turn light in the same lane: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.50928 ... 384!8i8192
Mandatory U-Turn signals (recently saw this on a different thread so you may have seen it): https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5009642 ... 384!8i8192

If you have anymore weird examples, leave them below.

[Osthagen]

I am struggling to recall another instance of the "two way" markings that you linked to in your above post, I roughly recall one in Manchester but I could be completely mistaken. I can't comment on whether or not they are 'legal'.

[jervi]

Think someone shared a YouTube video of these signals not too long ago.
Not quite what you were looking for, but still an interesting unique signals.
A few days ago I cycled down Coldean Lane and saw that these signals have an additional Green for something. Initially I thought it would be a Left turn (or right turn) aspect, however there is no real logical reason for either direction to have one (maybe left turn could have one), it may have been another example of a lane being controlled by two directional independent signals.
However today, I was out for another cycle (approaching from the East, and I worked out what it is for) https://youtu.be/Kp4hRXqcYvs
It is a bicycle dedicated green aspect signal, operated by a push button as you enter the main carriageway. Not sure why they couldn't of just put an IR sensor in, surely that would be standard, familiar & reliable. - I know it doesn't have an IR or loop that detects cyclists as when I was on it a couple of days ago I sat through a ghost phase until a car came up behind me.
Just for awareness this is where NCN Route 90 changes from a cycle path to on-road cycle lanes, hence the infrastructure to support this cycle movement.

I am struggling to recall another instance of the "two way" markings that you linked to in your above post, I roughly recall one in Manchester but I could be completely mistaken. I can't comment on whether or not they are 'legal'.

The left/right marking is legal, is whether a left/right lane is can have a green for one movement, while also having a red for another at the same time - on the same lane.

[Nathan_A_RF]

Not that specific location, but there authorisation documents for U-turn signs at a TfL junction.

[Skipsy]

Just remembered this: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.44977 ... 384!8i8192
A filter light for cyclists although I don't really understand its use?

[Stevie D]

This is the only case I know where people turning left can be blocked because of cars waiting for the right turn light in the same lane: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.50928 ... 384!8i8192

On Holgate Road in York, there is a single-lane approach to the traffic lights, which include a left-turn filter. The vast majority of the traffic there does turn left, and the filter isn't on for long before it goes to all-green, so it is rare for traffic turning left to be held up for long, but it's still pretty unusual.

[Stevie D]

Just remembered this: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.44977 ... 384!8i8192
A filter light for cyclists although I don't really understand its use?

It's a form of hook turn, like a 'Melbourne right'. The idea is that cyclists may not want to move out into the right-hand lane to turn right on a busy road, so they can instead turn right in a 2-part manoeuvre by staying left and then making the turn when the cross-traffic gets a green light.

[Piatkow]

This is the only case I know where people turning left can be blocked because of cars waiting for the right turn light in the same lane: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.50928 ... 384!8i8192
Mandatory U-Turn signals (recently saw this on a different thread so you may have seen it): https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5009642 ... 384!8i8192

If you have anymore weird examples, leave them below.

The second example is a novel solution to the issue of buses terminating by doing a U turn in the middle of the road. Unusually for London it isn't a shared use bus lane although I suspect that cabbies might use it to turn and get back to the station as well.

[jervi]

Just remembered this: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.44977 ... 384!8i8192
A filter light for cyclists although I don't really understand its use?

Its just so cyclists get a few seconds head start. Useful for those with cleats which take a few seconds to clip in, or just to empty the cycle reservoir (the area between the Advance Stop Line & Stop Line) before motor vehicles start moving. Can be a bit misleading for those taking a right turn as there isn't usually isn't enough time to carry out the maneuver .
in action here. Also the amount of vehicles that use the Advance Stop Line instead of the Stop Line is really annoying..

[Al__S]

Just remembered this: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.44977 ... 384!8i8192
A filter light for cyclists although I don't really understand its use?

Its just so cyclists get a few seconds head start. Useful for those with cleats which take a few seconds to clip in, or just to empty the cycle reservoir (the area between the Advance Stop Line & Stop Line) before motor vehicles start moving. Can be a bit misleading for those taking a right turn as there isn't usually isn't enough time to carry out the maneuver .
in action here. Also the amount of vehicles that use the Advance Stop Line instead of the Stop Line is really annoying..

Yeah, "cycle early start". We've got a few around Cambridge (I think we had the first), they're... OK? bit of a sticking plaster for bad junctions. Especially, as you say, because of the large number of numbers that, having seen the red light from a long way off, will stop in the box. Or even over the cycle stop line. Riding the clutch, creeping forward.

Anyway, they don't always activate- there will be an extra set of detectors in the cycle lane. So far I've only seen TfL also use the mini-signal heads for cycles (this junction has them as well)

[Chris5156]

Not that specific location, but there authorisation documents for U-turn signs at a TfL junction.

Doubly interesting because those aren't the u-turn symbols actually used at that junction!

[andrewwoods]

Just remembered this: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.44977 ... 384!8i8192
A filter light for cyclists although I don't really understand its use?

Its just so cyclists get a few seconds head start. Useful for those with cleats which take a few seconds to clip in, or just to empty the cycle reservoir (the area between the Advance Stop Line & Stop Line) before motor vehicles start moving. Can be a bit misleading for those taking a right turn as there isn't usually isn't enough time to carry out the maneuver .
in action here. Also the amount of vehicles that use the Advance Stop Line instead of the Stop Line is really annoying..

I've often thought that the cycle reservoir should be marked as a yellow box - drivers shouldn't enter unless their exit is clear. I realise that the current legislation wouldn't allow cyclists to stop there either, but that could be fixed.

Andrew

[traffic-light-man]

This is the only case I know where people turning left can be blocked because of cars waiting for the right turn light in the same lane: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.50928 ... 384!8i8192
Mandatory U-Turn signals (recently saw this on a different thread so you may have seen it): https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5009642 ... 384!8i8192

If you have anymore weird examples, leave them below.

Legal (and illegal, for that matter) are pretty harsh words in this instance, though the signals themselves are perfectly fine. The use of a multi-movement lane where there is a filter arrow is a bit daft, but there's nothing illegal about it.

I've seen quite a few in Ireland, but I'm not sure I know of any others in the UK. I can point at plenty of examples in the UK with a splitter island that have the same sort of problem, though.

Just remembered this: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.44977 ... 384!8i8192
A filter light for cyclists although I don't really understand its use?

As others have already pointed out, it's simply a filter for cyclists, functioning in the same way as a regular filter arrow would. It'll be paired with the Low Level Cycle Signal on the primary signal pole, so when the LLCS turns green, the cycle filter comes on at the secondary. It'll then allow cycles to clear the 'hook' right turn waiting area as well as the ASL in advance of the all-vehicles green.

TSM Chapter 6 shows a similar layout, but suggests a full cycle-RAG should be used in the secondary position on the nearside (left), which terminates (I assume back to red) prior to vehicular traffic moving. I'm not sure if I've missed something, but in my mind, that results in either a) a green LLCS but a red secondary, or b) cycles just get red at a shared (all traffic) stop line, neither of which make any sense. It also mentions using an in-line-4 with cycle filter on the offside, just to confuse matters.

Of course, it's possible that DfT may actually be trying to show the situation as linked to on GSV, but they've got their symbols and notations a bit wrong.

[Chris Bertram]

So far I've only seen TfL also use the mini-signal heads for cycles (this junction has them as well)

Birmingham has been using them on its new cycle superhighways.

[WHBM]

I've often thought that the cycle reservoir should be marked as a yellow box - drivers shouldn't enter unless their exit is clear. I realise that the current legislation wouldn't allow cyclists to stop there either, but that could be fixed.

The issue there is with some quite large boxes nowadays, in slow moving traffic through the junction the regulation on such signals is that if you pass the back box line on green but the signals then start to change, you must stop at the front box line rather than continuing.

It seems many do not realise this. "Entitled" cyclists in London will beat on the car doors if they find one stopped in "their" box, whereas the regulations states that in such a situation vehicles must do so.

The use of a multi-movement lane where there is a filter arrow is a bit daft, but there's nothing illegal about it.

Quite so. Lane markings which are not double continuous white lines, and direction arrows, are advisory, and do not have legal force.

If you think about it, the situation is little different to a conventional green ball signal with two approach lanes, left one marked straight ahead, right one marked ahead and right. Right turners will have to wait and give way to oncomings, but if nobody is turning right then both lanes are valid for straight ahead.

Drivers who stop at the front of the right hand lane at these latter junctions with no indicator, have others stop behind them in both lanes, and only when the signal clears move forward a bit and THEN put on their right indicator, should be put down at birth !

[traffic-light-man]

So far I've only seen TfL also use the mini-signal heads for cycles (this junction has them as well)

Birmingham has been using them on its new cycle superhighways.

Liverpool is starting to use them, but so far I've only seen them combined with a far-side filter cycle, like the London example.

There's currently some 'upgrade' works going on which include a site with old-school segregated cycle lanes and full height cycle primary and secondaries, so I'm interested to see what they deploy here when the new heads go in.

We do have some cycle filters without LLCS as they were a bit too early for those (they do have special authorisation, though). They were in several media outlets as being 'revolutionary'. They also have CCTV detection so they only trigger when something occupies the ASL box, which means some hideously large poles have been used to support the CCTV unit. It does make me smile watching (inevitably) taxi drivers and German-car-types waiting the extra 5 seconds while they hold the car on the clutch over the pedestrian crossing studs having triggered the ASL detector

[andrewwoods]

I've often thought that the cycle reservoir should be marked as a yellow box - drivers shouldn't enter unless their exit is clear. I realise that the current legislation wouldn't allow cyclists to stop there either, but that could be fixed.

The issue there is with some quite large boxes nowadays, in slow moving traffic through the junction the regulation on such signals is that if you pass the back box line on green but the signals then start to change, you must stop at the front box line rather than continuing.

Yes, and that's why it's impossible to prosecute a driver who's stopped between the lines.

If the cycle reservoir were a yellow box then, in slow moving traffic, drivers would not pass the back box line unless they could also pass the front box line. It would make almost no difference to traffic flow, but it would allow prosecution of any driver stopped between the lines.

Andrew

[jervi]

I am aware if you are unable to stop for the standard stop line at traffic lights, you are allowed to continue into the cycle reservoir, however are you to:
1. to stop as soon as reasonable (so you are straddling the normal stop line)
2. continue to the Advance Stop Line?
according to TSM CH6 12.14, the cycle reservoir can be upto 7.5 metres deep. In practice I've never had to stop past the normal stop line, but what is correct?

And regards to the colour of them, we really should have a UK standard for Cycle lanes & Cycle reservoirs. Ideally not orange/yellow (as may not be able to see other road markings), nor should they be red (as its common for high friction surfaces to be that colour). Wouldn't really support yellow hatching for Cycle reservoirs due potentially being confusing, after all, at all junctions you shouldn't enter the junction unless the exit is clear or only prevented by on-coming traffic, regardless if there is yellow hatching or not.

Also I think that standards should be changed that the primary signal should be inline with the normal stop line, with only LLCS located inline with the ASL, that way it would sub-consciously make motorists stop at the correct line. Also a minimum of 30 metres of cycle lane should be provided on the approach to junctions with ASL (where space allows) to allow cyclists to actually pass traffic and get to their cycle reservoir.

[traffic-light-man]

When ASLs were first introduced, there had to be a lead-in cycle lane, which made sense to allow cycles to access the box.

Since then, the regulations have been changed a few times, first allowing for a gap in the ASL with a dashed line 'tail' on an angle to allow cycles to legally cross the ASL, and latterly simply to allow cycles to contravene the ASL in order to access the box. I think the latter was probably retrospective in order to authorise many of the dodgy non-conforming boxes out there, but it certainly increased the ability to just smash an ASL down wherever to create some cycling infrastructure.

I'm personally not a fan of the idea of ASLs on the basis that they only work while the signals are red, assuming the cycles can access them in the first place, amongst other things. This article is quite good at explaining some of the fundamental issues with ASLs in principle, without adding on the fact they're often ignored by a substantial portion of the motoring public.

[Bryn666]

The permanent left turn green arrow here is useless if someone is travelling straight ahead.

https://goo.gl/maps/RpehMiXaQjnb6Rf49

It never switches off even when the green shows.

https://goo.gl/maps/VV6rxHsJLfpnAGeHA

The entire junction is stupid, to be honest - see also the right turn lane stop line being pulled right back because of swept vehicle movements causing problems.