Are there late start installations in London?

[AndyB]

Belfast had a few installations with an exit amber, with a sign above the exit amber saying "Signal experiment", but I think all have now been changed to more conventional protected right turns.

[Gareth]

I thought they were allowed in Northern Ireland; or at least common enough to be considered normal. Certainly, they're found south of the border.

Australia has a similar signal, although with an amber arrow. The United States had similar, although with the red aligned in the middle creating a doghouse shape. Perhaps we should experiment with something similar.

[traffic-light-man]

I thought they were allowed in Northern Ireland; or at least common enough to be considered normal.

Indeed, they were authorised in the Traffic Signs (Amendment No. 2) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1992.

I like the fact the height difference between the amber aspects is accounted for, being that it was Mellors.

I'd certainly be a fan of seeing amber arrows introduced for this purpose. I imagine it could become a useful tool for other things too, including closing a filter arrow to a full red.

[Chris584]

I remember an experiment that took place at Ponders End between Edmonton (north London) and Waltham Cross in Hertfordshire where there was an amber right turn filter which flashed. The point of that was to allow traffic to turn right as per a normal filter, but to warn drivers of pedestrians crossing the side road, and to give way to them. I don't know how long it lasted as the sign explaining the signal didn't say how long it would be there.
The signals were Mellors.

[Gareth]

There's an article on roads.org.uk about proposed experiments involving flashing amber arrows to indicate that motorists should give way to pedestrians. It's implied that they never got off the drawing board. First I've ever heard of such a thing in the wild.

[Chris Bertram]

There's an article on roads.org.uk about proposed experiments involving flashing amber arrows to indicate that motorists should give way to pedestrians. It's implied that they never got off the drawing board. First I've ever heard of such a thing in the wild.

You can find them in Germany at least. Ireland has flashing amber arrows indicating yield to traffic on a main line, and I think I remember the same in France, where you will also sometimes find flashing amber in place of a green ball signal, especially in the vicinity of fire and ambulance stations where they use otherwise conventional three-lamp signals rather than the wig-wags that we're used to.

[Chris5156]

There's an article on roads.org.uk about proposed experiments involving flashing amber arrows to indicate that motorists should give way to pedestrians. It's implied that they never got off the drawing board. First I've ever heard of such a thing in the wild.

First I've heard of it too! The article is here but my research suggested the relevant minister (Lynda Chalker, IIRC) halted it before anything was installed on the ground. Apparently the GLC installed some anyway. Wonder if there are any pictures anywhere?

[Gareth]

Could it be here...?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/33955525@N05/23268412951/

EDIT: think I can pretty much confirm in this photo. There's a blue sign with white text. It's fuzzy, but I can make out it reads something along the lines of "Pedestrian priority on flashing amber arrow"...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/33955525@ ... hotostream

Shame neither photo shows the sequence in action.

[traffic-light-man]

Good grief, I think it could be!

You can make out the single aspect likely housing the flashing amber figure sited next to the ped head.

[Chris584]

Well done Gareth! That is the very Junction I was talking about. Great find Sir.

[Chris5156]

Brilliant find! Where exactly is the junction?

[Chris584]

While we're on the subject of flashing traffic lights, in either the late 60s or early 70s, there was an experiment at the junction of Holborn Viaduct and Old Bailey/Giltspur Street (City of London) whereby after 21.00 hours the traffic lights would go into a flashing mode until the morning. The lights facing Holborn Viaduct would flash amber and the lights for the other two roads flashed red. These were tin head lights. Approaching the amber lights you were supposed to proceed with caution, approaching the red lights you were to stop & give way.
This sort of system was, and still is widespread in America if not elsewhere.
I believe it was to save drivers stopping when the roads were quiet at night, as they were in those days.

[Gareth]

Christ Chris, why haven't you thought to mention these things before? Any other weird signal experiments while we're here?

I'm assuming the flashing Holborn lights were these...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 509312.jpg

..although there's nothing that appears to be particularly special about them; just a standard late 60s plessey tin installaion. There's no sign visible warning of the flash mode. That said, the photo supposedly dates from 1978, so chances are, they'd ended the experiment by then.

By the way, I'd also like to know the exact location of that flashing amber arrow experiment. The photos don't say.

[Chris584]

Sorry Gareth, these memories seem to come along while I'm on this site and something suddenly springs to mind
The junction is Hertford Road & Southbury Road. The 149 bus in the picture you put up is coming from Enfield Garage heading back into London.
The picture you posted of Holborn Viaduct is the correct place, and they would have been the lights involved.
Just a piece of useless info, the church diagonally opposite the Old Bailey is St Supulcher where my parents married and yours truly was christened!
If I think of anything else I'll post it

[Gareth]

The junction is Hertford Road & Southbury Road. The 149 bus in the picture you put up is coming from Enfield Garage heading back into London.

I thought that was the place. Was thrown a bit because it looks rather different these days. Sadly, can't locate any other photos of those lights. Nor any information online about the experiment.

[traffic-light-man]

I thought that was the place. Was thrown a bit because it looks rather different these days. Sadly, can't locate any other photos of those lights. Nor any information online about the experiment.

I also spent a good while yesterday trying to locate more images and information, but to no avail. It doesn't appear to have had any kind of experimental traffic order, but I'm not sure if this would apply given there's no actual change to the road layout or anything that (I would think) would require a TRO. I didn't do any exhaustive searching, though.

I could only find one other picture, but it just showed the inverted-'T' secondary again, with nothing lit other than the green ball.

I wonder if TfL would have any records going back to the GLC days that might include something regarding this installation?

[Chris584]

Simon,
Re your pm to me, can you email me. You may or may not
have received my pm reply, so this way will work.
Cheers
Chris

[traffic-light-man]

If anyone's interested in noting how the late start installations work, I've taken some videos at a couple of sites in Liverpool that have no islands or central reservations, which I've uploaded to YouTube.




Edit 2: I've realised my mistake with the YouTube embedding, so it's now fixed.

[traffic-light-man]

Earlier upthread, Gareth and I discussed a situation where I believed a certain location to do both a late start and an early cut-off on the same approach.

By complete chance, I stumbled across another junction where that happens. I was initially recording the late start with double-secondary set up, but then noticed that it also runs an early cut-off as well, hence the closely associated secondary in the opposing direction.

I'm not sure if there was a detector fault, or just some unusual staging, but it seemed to revert to the early cut-off stage if there were no demands, and it also appeared not be forced through an amber then red clearance subsequently either, so it could be both late start and early cut-off in the same stage if the next demand was from opposing traffic rather than cross traffic.

I've uploaded a video to YouTube, which shows it with the closing amber.

[traffic-light-man]

That Old Swan one was always early cut off. Certainly, that was how it was when that installation was first put in, back in c1995. Steeetview clearly shows it operating late start though. News to me.

That said, those signals have been altered at least once in the last 25 years, even though the signal poles/heads, bar the odd casual replacement, are original. When new, the two halves of the staggered junction operated in unified stages i.e. that early cut-off always ran when Derby Ln got green. The two halves largely run flexibility now.

I can confirm that it runs both - and I took a video of it in operation, too.



The late start for the turn into Broad Green Road runs concurrently with the exclusive stage from St Oswalds Street. The arrow then extinguishes for the main Prescot Road stage on each junction. It appeared to me that the early cut-off is demand dependent along with the right turn in to Derby Lane, call registered by traffic waiting to turn right in either right turn pocket, though it was to busy to confirm that.

Also, the pedestrian crossing on the left slip going into St Oswalds St had limited points within the cycle where it could run a pedestrian phase. Now, you get instant amber as soon as you push the button, no matter where the rest of the signals are at.

I used that crossing today, and had to wait for the signals to change. They changed to red concurrently with the signals on Prescot Road. It seemed to change again once the St Oswald St exclusive stage had completed.