Cross border oddities and anomalies

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danfw194
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Cross border oddities and anomalies

Post by danfw194 »

I just so happened to stumble across this: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.34490 ... 312!8i6656

So this is the curious case of Knighton in Powys, Wales. Well, the town is in Wales, but it's rail station is actually over the River Teme in Shropshire, England. And as the streetview shows, the British Rail sign has the Welsh translation of Knighton, even though it stands in England. Firstly, does anyone know if that is correct?.....should the sign be like that, or because it's actually in England should it lose the Welsh translation?

But it got me thinking if there are any other little cross border oddities and anomalies like this, whether it be county to county or country to country, road-related or other transport, anything really. And not necessarily just in the UK, wherever....
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

If the station serves the town of Knighton in Wales, it seems appropriate to use dual language.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

Post by Gareth »

Further down, there's a phonebox with a billingual sign stating that coins aren't accepted.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

Post by TS »

Well, of course, there are many discrepancies postally along the borders of both Wales and Scotland. The postal address is, naturally, the town through which post is delivered - which will be the most convenient without regard to which side of the border it lies.

Baileymill in Cumbria postally is in NEWCASTLETON, Roxburghshire. Gretna in Dumfriesshire came under CARLISLE until it became a post town in its own right in 1990.
Gladestry in Powys is postally in KINGTON, Herefordshire. Hay on Wye in Powys is postally in HEREFORD. Chirbury in Shropshire is postally in MONTGOMERY, Powys.

The most striking discrepancy is OSWESTRY, Shropshire, whose area extends in a long, broad tongue-shaped area extending well into Wales as far as Lake Vyrnwy.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

Post by Chris Bertram »

TS wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 15:43 Well, of course, there are many discrepancies postally along the borders of both Wales and Scotland. The postal address is, naturally, the town through which post is delivered - which will be the most convenient without regard to which side of the border it lies.

Baileymill in Cumbria postally is in NEWCASTLETON, Roxburghshire. Gretna in Dumfriesshire came under CARLISLE until it became a post town in its own right in 1990.
Gladestry in Powys is postally in KINGTON, Herefordshire. Hay on Wye in Powys is postally in HEREFORD. Chirbury in Shropshire is postally in MONTGOMERY, Powys.

The most striking discrepancy is OSWESTRY, Shropshire, whose area extends in a long, broad tongue-shaped area extending well into Wales as far as Lake Vyrnwy.
Yes, the postcode system is designed and maintained for the primary convenience of the Royal Mail, formerly an arm of the Post Office - the clue is in the name. So you have the SY (Shrewsbury) postcode area extending right across mid-Wales to Cardigan Bay, such that the proudly Welsh town of Aberystwyth has SY postcodes. Conversely, a small part of the LL (Llandudno) postcode area is in Shropshire. Where district, borough, county and national borders coincide with postcode boundaries, that's just coincidence. Even now, much of Greater London is not covered by the "London" postal districts (N, NW, W, SW, SE, E, EC and WC), and the boundaries of those districts didn't even coincide with the County of London before Greater London was created.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

Post by Stevie D »

danfw194 wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 14:29So this is the curious case of Knighton in Powys, Wales. Well, the town is in Wales, but it's rail station is actually over the River Teme in Shropshire, England. And as the streetview shows, the British Rail sign has the Welsh translation of Knighton, even though it stands in England. Firstly, does anyone know if that is correct?.....should the sign be like that, or because it's actually in England should it lose the Welsh translation?

But it got me thinking if there are any other little cross border oddities and anomalies like this, whether it be county to county or country to country, road-related or other transport, anything really. And not necessarily just in the UK, wherever....
Up until 1974, Malton was the only town in England that had its railway station in a different county ... Malton was (and still is) in North Yorkshire, but Malton railway station is actually in Norton, across the river Derwent, and up until the local government reorganisation it was part of East Yorkshire. In 1974, most of East Yorkshire became part of the newly-formed Humberside and the northern strip, including Norton and Filey, became part of North Yorkshire, where they stayed after Humberside was disbanded and East Yorkshire reinstated in 1996.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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Stevie D wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 20:13 Up until 1974, Malton was the only town in England that had its railway station in a different county ... Malton was (and still is) in North Yorkshire, but Malton railway station is actually in Norton, across the river Derwent, and up until the local government reorganisation it was part of East Yorkshire. In 1974, most of East Yorkshire became part of the newly-formed Humberside and the northern strip, including Norton and Filey, became part of North Yorkshire, where they stayed after Humberside was disbanded and East Yorkshire reinstated in 1996.
Malton and its railway station are both in Yorkshire. They are, however, in different Ridings.

Rowley Regis, on the other hand, is in Staffordshire; whilst Rowley Regis railway station is in Worcestershire. I suspect there are a number of others in places where urban areas spill across several county boundaries.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

Post by Chris Bertram »

Steven wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 20:36
Stevie D wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 20:13 Up until 1974, Malton was the only town in England that had its railway station in a different county ... Malton was (and still is) in North Yorkshire, but Malton railway station is actually in Norton, across the river Derwent, and up until the local government reorganisation it was part of East Yorkshire. In 1974, most of East Yorkshire became part of the newly-formed Humberside and the northern strip, including Norton and Filey, became part of North Yorkshire, where they stayed after Humberside was disbanded and East Yorkshire reinstated in 1996.
Malton and its railway station are both in Yorkshire. They are, however, in different Ridings.

Rowley Regis, on the other hand, is in Staffordshire; whilst Rowley Regis railway station is in Worcestershire. I suspect there are a number of others in places where urban areas spill across several county boundaries.
Even now, the modern borough boundary in the Rowley Regis and Blackheath area is rather random. Blackheath town centre is in Sandwell, but the parish church, St Paul's, is just within Dudley borough. While historically Dudley castle was actually within the manor of Sedgley!
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

Post by Klepsydra »

TS wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 15:43 Well, of course, there are many discrepancies postally along the borders of both Wales and Scotland. The postal address is, naturally, the town through which post is delivered - which will be the most convenient without regard to which side of the border it lies.

Baileymill in Cumbria postally is in NEWCASTLETON, Roxburghshire. Gretna in Dumfriesshire came under CARLISLE until it became a post town in its own right in 1990.
Gladestry in Powys is postally in KINGTON, Herefordshire. Hay on Wye in Powys is postally in HEREFORD.
Hay on Wye was another case of a town in Wales with a station in England.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

Post by crb11 »

Stevie D wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 20:13 Up until 1974, Malton was the only town in England that had its railway station in a different county ... Malton was (and still is) in North Yorkshire, but Malton railway station is actually in Norton, across the river Derwent, and up until the local government reorganisation it was part of East Yorkshire. In 1974, most of East Yorkshire became part of the newly-formed Humberside and the northern strip, including Norton and Filey, became part of North Yorkshire, where they stayed after Humberside was disbanded and East Yorkshire reinstated in 1996.
There are other examples: Brandon (Suffolk) has its railway station in Norfolk. Royston (Herts) was in Cambridgeshire until they moved the border in the 1890s. Haddenham and Thame Parkway is in Bucks but Thame is in Oxon. Newmarket and Royden both have the county boundary running along the railway line, so part of the station is in the wrong county. And Yeovil Junction (the busier of the two stations for the town) was in Dorset until 1991. Also Bristol Parkway is in Gloucestershire, but that wouldn't count.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

Post by Steven »

crb11 wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:16
Stevie D wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 20:13 Up until 1974, Malton was the only town in England that had its railway station in a different county ... Malton was (and still is) in North Yorkshire, but Malton railway station is actually in Norton, across the river Derwent, and up until the local government reorganisation it was part of East Yorkshire. In 1974, most of East Yorkshire became part of the newly-formed Humberside and the northern strip, including Norton and Filey, became part of North Yorkshire, where they stayed after Humberside was disbanded and East Yorkshire reinstated in 1996.
There are other examples: Brandon (Suffolk) has its railway station in Norfolk. Royston (Herts) was in Cambridgeshire until they moved the border in the 1890s. Haddenham and Thame Parkway is in Bucks but Thame is in Oxon. Newmarket and Royden both have the county boundary running along the railway line, so part of the station is in the wrong county. And Yeovil Junction (the busier of the two stations for the town) was in Dorset until 1991. Also Bristol Parkway is in Gloucestershire, but that wouldn't count.
Royston town centre and its station are both in Cambridgeshire, whilst they're also both administered these days by Hertfordshire County Council - the local authority boundary is along the bypass rather than the railway line.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

Post by Chris Bertram »

To me it looks like Stamford station may once have been in the wrong county. Stamford is in Lincolnshire, in the Parts of Kesteven historically (Margaret Thatcher's title stated "of Grantham in the County of Kesteven", and the College of Heralds were happy with that). The county boundary with historic Northamptonshire roughly follows the River Welland, and the station is over the river from the town. But the modern boundary, with Peterborough UA, diverts around the station and the part of town around it to include it in Lincolnshire. I don't think this is to do with the river changing course over time (though this happens elsewhere), so when did this happen. Incidentally, if you look for Stamford Station in Streetmap, it comes up as Stamford Station, Peterborough, which I'm sure is wrong.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:35 To me it looks like Stamford station may once have been in the wrong county. Stamford is in Lincolnshire, in the Parts of Kesteven historically (Margaret Thatcher's title stated "of Grantham in the County of Kesteven", and the College of Heralds were happy with that). The county boundary with historic Northamptonshire roughly follows the River Welland, and the station is over the river from the town. But the modern boundary, with Peterborough UA, diverts around the station and the part of town around it to include it in Lincolnshire. I don't think this is to do with the river changing course over time (though this happens elsewhere), so when did this happen.
It would be really good if we had a SABRE Maps layer that showed where the county boundary is...

:laugh:

As for the "when", the 1911 district boundary does the divert around the railway, so I suspect it's a difference between the county boundary and the 1888 Administrative County boundary with the administrative boundary being perpetuated through the various dissolutions and establishments since.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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danfw194 wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 14:29 I just so happened to stumble across this: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.34490 ... 312!8i6656

So this is the curious case of Knighton in Powys, Wales. Well, the town is in Wales, but it's rail station is actually over the River Teme in Shropshire, England. And as the streetview shows, the British Rail sign has the Welsh translation of Knighton, even though it stands in England. Firstly, does anyone know if that is correct?.....should the sign be like that, or because it's actually in England should it lose the Welsh translation?

But it got me thinking if there are any other little cross border oddities and anomalies like this, whether it be county to county or country to country, road-related or other transport, anything really. And not necessarily just in the UK, wherever....
British Rail? Remind me to renew my Road Fund License.
More likely down to the station being managed by Transport for Wales.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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Steven wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:30 Royston town centre and its station are both in Cambridgeshire, whilst they're also both administered these days by Hertfordshire County Council - the local authority boundary is along the bypass rather than the railway line.
No, the historic town centre is the triangle between the A10 and former A14 and A505, so predominantly in Hertfordshire. Royston has always been seen as a Hertfordshire town with a bit of a spillover into Cambridgeshire (similar to Newmarket) Until 1900 there was almost nothing on the Cambridgeshire side except for the north side of the A505 (forming the border) and a few buildings in the square north of the Cross.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

Post by crb11 »

Chris Bertram wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:35 To me it looks like Stamford station may once have been in the wrong county. Stamford is in Lincolnshire, in the Parts of Kesteven historically (Margaret Thatcher's title stated "of Grantham in the County of Kesteven", and the College of Heralds were happy with that). The county boundary with historic Northamptonshire roughly follows the River Welland, and the station is over the river from the town. But the modern boundary, with Peterborough UA, diverts around the station and the part of town around it to include it in Lincolnshire. I don't think this is to do with the river changing course over time (though this happens elsewhere), so when did this happen. Incidentally, if you look for Stamford Station in Streetmap, it comes up as Stamford Station, Peterborough, which I'm sure is wrong.
The change was in The Cambridgeshire, Essex, Hertfordshire and Lincolnshire (County Boundaries) Order 1989. (It's in the same series of boundary reviews that brought Yeovil Junction into Somerset, and the same act that moved the Herts/Cambs northern boundary onto the A505 bypass.)

And yes, the postal address of the station is Stamford, although the adjacent Stamford Junior school is Wothorpe, Peterborough.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

Post by Al__S »

Strictly speaking, surely, a railway station totem sign isn't a "road sign", in that the standards for them are set by the Railways, and they're not covered by TSRGD?
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

Post by Vierwielen »

Stevie D wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 20:13 Up until 1974, Malton was the only town in England that had its railway station in a different county ... Malton was (and still is) in North Yorkshire, but Malton railway station is actually in Norton, across the river Derwent, and up until the local government reorganisation it was part of East Yorkshire. In 1974, most of East Yorkshire became part of the newly-formed Humberside and the northern strip, including Norton and Filey, became part of North Yorkshire, where they stayed after Humberside was disbanded and East Yorkshire reinstated in 1996.
Although Blackwater Station and Blackwater town are both in Hampshire, one has to drive into Surrey and then into Berkshire to get motor access to the southbound platform. On the other hand, if your passenger hops out here they do not have to leave Hampshire. A little further down the line however North Camp Railway Station is in Surrey while North Camp itself is in Hampshire. (See here).
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

Post by Chris Bertram »

Wivelsfield village is in East Sussex. However, Wivelsfield station is a couple of miles away in West Sussex, and might be better named Burgess Hill North.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

Post by Gareth Thomas »

Knockholt village and its station are a couple of miles apart. Prior to 1965 both were in Kent. Afterwards both were transferred to Greater London, but the village was returned to Kent four years later following a campaign by villagers. The station however is still in Greater London.
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