Cross border oddities and anomalies

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Chris Bertram
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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vlad wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 20:20
WHBM wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 21:23 This is exactly how the old Thomas Cook railway timetable of Europe used to do it, so it used Milano, Lisboa, etc, on the basis that when you got there, that's what the signs said. The editor did an explanation of this at the front. It seemed the most sensible way to handle international names in something used by people from many countries (ignoring different alphabets).
That's probably the best way to do it, as otherwise you're going to get places that change their names at linguistic boundaries. It fascinates me when the native name for a place is quite different from the name in other languages as that raises the question where the other languages got their name from (and even who was first).

One advantage of putting everything in English, of course, is that it doesn't unduly favour one language over another. Calling the capital of Belgium Brussels, for example, does remove the pretty much sectarian debate as to whether the Flemings or Walloons have the upper hand. :stir:
Milan is Milano in Italian and Mailand in German. Munich is München in German and (confusingly) Monaco in Italian. Marseille sometimes acquires a redundant, unpronounced terminal s in English, and Lyon once did the same. Rome is Roma in Italian, Rom in German and Rôme with the circumflex in French. Strasbourg is Straßburg in German. We used to call Frankfurt Frankfort, and the capital of Kentucky helps us to remember this. Nice is Nizza in Italian. All worth knowing if perusing European rail timetables.

Driving into Belgium from Calais or Dunkirk, the signs, IIRC, mention Furnes with its Flemish local name of Veurne in brackets. Bruxelles magically becomes Brussel as soon as you cross the border, and Bruges likewise turns into Brugge. On which subject, it's odd, isn't it, that we've historically used the French name for that city, but the Flemish name for its seaport, Zeebrugge.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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I think that the issue has now been fixed but Middlesex street forms the boundary Tower Hamlets and the City of London. It is one way but the City Corporation had no signage on their side to indicate that traffic joining from the east could only turn in one direction. Tower Hamlets had their own signage on the side roads but these were often obscured by vans loading at various premises so bonnet to bonnet confrontations weren't uncommon.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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vlad wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 20:20 One advantage of putting everything in English, of course, is that it doesn't unduly favour one language over another. Calling the capital of Belgium Brussels, for example, does remove the pretty much sectarian debate as to whether the Flemings or Walloons have the upper hand. :stir:
When in doubt, I usually do that in Belgium (I can get by in Flemmish/Dutch, but not in French). I did however once demand that a waitress call the manager. We (wife, two children and myself) were at a holiday camp in the Ardennes. The camp itself was advertised in British, Dutch, Belgian, French and German brochures and all notices were in four languages. The waitress concerned refused to "understand" anything apart from French, even though I offered to use English, Dutch or German. I made a point in reminding the manager that the etiquette in Belgium (as I understand it) is to use the language of the person who is parting with money.
Last edited by Vierwielen on Fri Feb 12, 2021 17:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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Piatkow wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:55 I think that the issue has now been fixed but Middlesex Street forms the boundary Tower Hamlets and the City of London. It is one way but the City Corporation had no signage on their side to indicate that traffic joining from the east could only turn in one direction. Tower Hamlets had their own signage on the side roads but these were often obscured by vans loading at various premises so bonnet to bonnet confrontations weren't uncommon.
I used to work at 100 Middlesex Street (Tower Hamlets side; a 1960s block now demolished and replaced). Even more surprising, the street one way direction has been reversed, when I was there it was south to north but now the other way round, so looks strange to me now. Street name, incidentally, was changed to that from Petticoat Lane, which used to be the official street name, by prudish early Victorians; prior to the 1888 reorganisation it was the boundary between the City of London and Middlesex.
Vierwielen wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 17:26
... in Belgium ... The waitress concerned refused to "understand" anything apart from French, even though I offered to use English, Dutch or German. I made a point in reminding the manager that the etiquette in Belgium (as I understand it) is to use the language of the person who is parting with money.
I've encountered this with Belgians as well. The very well educated Flemish Belgian couple I spoke to on a Mediterranean holiday had immaculate English, but when I described my travels in Belgium, including Bruges, which I pronounced the French "Broozh" way, they denied all knowledge of such a place, although it was quite obvious where I meant, until after a sly poke from one to the other one said "I think you mean Brugga", using the Flemish pronunciation.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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duplicate - deleted
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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WHBM wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 19:59
Piatkow wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:55 I think that the issue has now been fixed but Middlesex Street forms the boundary Tower Hamlets and the City of London. It is one way but the City Corporation had no signage on their side to indicate that traffic joining from the east could only turn in one direction. Tower Hamlets had their own signage on the side roads but these were often obscured by vans loading at various premises so bonnet to bonnet confrontations weren't uncommon.
I used to work at 100 Middlesex Street (Tower Hamlets side; a 1960s block now demolished and replaced). Even more surprising, the street one way direction has been reversed, when I was there it was south to north but now the other way round, so looks strange to me now. Street name, incidentally, was changed to that from Petticoat Lane, which used to be the official street name, by prudish early Victorians; prior to the 1888 reorganisation it was the boundary between the City of London and Middlesex.
To be pedantic for a moment Petticoat Lane ran from Widegate Street to the junction of Aldgate and Whitechapel High Streets.

Middlesex Street was formed by widening Petticoat Lane as far as the section now incorporated into Sandys Row, building a new road diagonally across the building lines to Widegate Street and then taking in Widegate Street to Bishopsgate. This explains the triangular building plot at the junction of Widegte Street and the two small triangular spaces opposite on the south side of Middlesex Street.

You can find these strange angles at junctions on other major roads in inner London which were cut through by the Metropolitan Board of Works.
Last edited by Piatkow on Fri Feb 12, 2021 22:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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Piatkow wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 21:34 To be pedantic for a moment Petticoat Lane ran from Widegate Street to the junction of Aldgate and Shoreditch High Streets.
As you can possibly tell, our office was right at this point, where the 34-storey high-rise is now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_Spitalfields . The City/Tower Hamlets boundary does not run up Middlesex Street all the way up here, the part you describe as new by the Met Board of Works, but diverts up the middle of Sandys Row, an extremely narrow street, where like Widegate Street, even in horse/cart days you could not stop there at all without blocking it completely, hence the widening project. A 1900 OS map seems to show the property demolition for the diversion, but not the new street made yet. "Our" pub was the Kings Stores, right on the corner of these two narrow streets, where we would spill out onto the pavement in summer and amuse ourselves with even something as small as a basic Transit getting stuck trying to get round the corner.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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In Victorian times a few new roads in London were built when some areas of pre-Georgian buildings were pulled down in redevelopment projects.

Northumberland Avenue comes to mind.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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Vierwielen wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 17:26
vlad wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 20:20 One advantage of putting everything in English, of course, is that it doesn't unduly favour one language over another. Calling the capital of Belgium Brussels, for example, does remove the pretty much sectarian debate as to whether the Flemings or Walloons have the upper hand. :stir:
When in doubt, I usually do that in Belgium (I can get by in Flemmish/Dutch, but not in French). I did however once demand that a waitress call the manager. We (wife, two children and myself) were at a holiday camp in the Ardennes. The camp itself was advertised in British, Dutch, Belgian, French and German brochures and all notices were in four languages. The waitress concerned refused to "understand" anything apart from French, even though I offered to use English, Dutch or German. I made a point in reminding the manager that the etiquette in Belgium (as I understand it) is to use the language of the person who is parting with money.
Belgium is de facto two monolingual states with bilingual areas. The norm is you do not expect service in the other language to the language of the community you are in, in deed you are more likely to be served in English in Flanders than in French. Even in federal institutions like Bpost or SNCB/NMSB

You have signs like this https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.75927 ... 312!8i6656

where every destination is Francophone, as is the top of the slip road it is directing you to, but as that side of the street is in Flanders they are in Dutch only. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.75873 ... 312!8i6656

(bilingual as Mouscron is Wallonia but is a bi lingual facilities)
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 13:17
DavidB wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 20:57 Also on that sign is Doornik, the Flemish name for a city which most of its residents would know by its French name of Tournai.
If the sign is in Flanders, the names will be the Flemish ones, simple as. That's the way the Belgians do it. Only Brussels is officially bilingual. There's an area in French-speaking Wallonia near the German border where German has a sort-of official status, not sure what happens there.
I don't know what the precise status of German is in that part of Belgium, but it's official enough to have its own radio stations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgischer_Rundfunk
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 13:17
DavidB wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 20:57 Also on that sign is Doornik, the Flemish name for a city which most of its residents would know by its French name of Tournai.
If the sign is in Flanders, the names will be the Flemish ones, simple as. That's the way the Belgians do it. Only Brussels is officially bilingual. There's an area in French-speaking Wallonia near the German border where German has a sort-of official status, not sure what happens there.
German is co-official in Cantons de l'Est and is the third official language on a federal level. Roads are a regional responsibility, so these are bilingual https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.63477 ... 384!8i8192 except where they are communal and so in German only.

The area is in Wallonia but does not come under the French Community so community services are provided by the government of the German Community.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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I always felt (before the Eastern European breakups) that if there was one European country most likely to have a civil war break out, it was Belgium. The two factions really despise one another. Politics and government is entirely dominated by each side glowering over all expenditure to ensure the other side don't get one Euro more than an equal division.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 21:21
vlad wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 20:20
WHBM wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 21:23 This is exactly how the old Thomas Cook railway timetable of Europe used to do it, so it used Milano, Lisboa, etc, on the basis that when you got there, that's what the signs said. The editor did an explanation of this at the front. It seemed the most sensible way to handle international names in something used by people from many countries (ignoring different alphabets).
That's probably the best way to do it, as otherwise you're going to get places that change their names at linguistic boundaries. It fascinates me when the native name for a place is quite different from the name in other languages as that raises the question where the other languages got their name from (and even who was first).

One advantage of putting everything in English, of course, is that it doesn't unduly favour one language over another. Calling the capital of Belgium Brussels, for example, does remove the pretty much sectarian debate as to whether the Flemings or Walloons have the upper hand. :stir:
Milan is Milano in Italian and Mailand in German. Munich is München in German and (confusingly) Monaco in Italian. Marseille sometimes acquires a redundant, unpronounced terminal s in English, and Lyon once did the same. Rome is Roma in Italian, Rom in German and Rôme with the circumflex in French. Strasbourg is Straßburg in German. We used to call Frankfurt Frankfort, and the capital of Kentucky helps us to remember this. Nice is Nizza in Italian. All worth knowing if perusing European rail timetables.

Driving into Belgium from Calais or Dunkirk, the signs, IIRC, mention Furnes with its Flemish local name of Veurne in brackets. Bruxelles magically becomes Brussel as soon as you cross the border, and Bruges likewise turns into Brugge. On which subject, it's odd, isn't it, that we've historically used the French name for that city, but the Flemish name for its seaport, Zeebrugge.
Rome is 'Rome' in French, one of the reasons we call it Rome. No circumflex as that indicates that an 's' was taken out, which was never there.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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exiled wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 14:52Rome is 'Rome' in French, one of the reasons we call it Rome. No circumflex as that indicates that an 's' was taken out, which was never there.
I'm sure I've seen it with one. Must be mistaken, or there was an error in the printing.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 15:01
exiled wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 14:52Rome is 'Rome' in French, one of the reasons we call it Rome. No circumflex as that indicates that an 's' was taken out, which was never there.
I'm sure I've seen it with one. Must be mistaken, or there was an error in the printing.
In every language across the globe there are probably places that have ended up with strange names due to a spelling mistake/printers error. Pratchett's Bear Mountain in Discworld for a fictional example.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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roadtester wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 14:29
Chris Bertram wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 13:17
DavidB wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 20:57 Also on that sign is Doornik, the Flemish name for a city which most of its residents would know by its French name of Tournai.
If the sign is in Flanders, the names will be the Flemish ones, simple as. That's the way the Belgians do it. Only Brussels is officially bilingual. There's an area in French-speaking Wallonia near the German border where German has a sort-of official status, not sure what happens there.
I don't know what the precise status of German is in that part of Belgium, but it's official enough to have its own radio stations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgischer_Rundfunk
Co-official with Dutch and French on a federal level, co-official with French in that area on a regional level, and official on a community level with its own parliament and government. Belgian federalism is one of the more complicated ones going.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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My recollection of being driven through Belgium in the 1960s is that road signs were bilingual, but that had resulted in the names in the "wrong" language being painted over, presumably by language fanatics.

I always assumed this was the reason for changing to signage only in the language of the district, which leads to oddities like on the E40 motorway from Brussels to Liege which swaps between Flemish- and French-speaking districts at various points, with the destination changing from Liège to Luik accordingly.

I've driven a few times through the German-speaking part of Belgium (my favourite route from here in Germany to the UK is A6-A62-A1-A60-E42-E40 - a bit longer than the alternatives, but more interesting). In this area there is bilingual signage (German and French), but sometimes the French has been painted over, as in this example:
https://goo.gl/maps/RPxjLjYT46HtTUfQ6
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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I recall that I Aix-la-Chapelle featured prominently in our History lessons (Charlemagne's capital, treaties of etc) and also in English Literature "How they brought the good news from Aix to Ghent". In the last few days I searched for a signpost pointing to Aix-la-Chapelle, but could not find one. However, I found many pictures of signposts featuring "Aachen".
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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Andy P wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 17:44 My recollection of being driven through Belgium in the 1960s is that road signs were bilingual, but that had resulted in the names in the "wrong" language being painted over, presumably by language fanatics.

I always assumed this was the reason for changing to signage only in the language of the district, which leads to oddities like on the E40 motorway from Brussels to Liege which swaps between Flemish- and French-speaking districts at various points, with the destination changing from Liège to Luik accordingly.

I've driven a few times through the German-speaking part of Belgium (my favourite route from here in Germany to the UK is A6-A62-A1-A60-E42-E40 - a bit longer than the alternatives, but more interesting). In this area there is bilingual signage (German and French), but sometimes the French has been painted over, as in this example:
https://goo.gl/maps/RPxjLjYT46HtTUfQ6
Reading up, the linguistic monolingualism in Belgium has been there since the 1930s when Belgium finally gave up trying to be a French speaking state.

Though if you go here onto page 74 you have the evolution of direction signs in Flanders.

https://www.toerismevlaanderen.be/sites ... 0Frans.pdf

However the 1960s were when it really started to boil over, for example the Catholic University of Louvain being split into two universities with the French section moving to a new town (Louvain la Neuve) the other side of Brussels.

As for the E40, I can imagine that having a different trace to the east of Brussels if built now. Since 1989 roads have been a regional competence, so the crossing the regional boundary so often, the taalgrens/frontière linquistique, would be something both Flanders and Wallonia would avoid.
Last edited by exiled on Tue Feb 16, 2021 16:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cross border oddities and anomalies

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Vierwielen wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 14:52 I recall that I Aix-la-Chapelle featured prominently in our History lessons (Charlemagne's capital, treaties of etc) and also in English Literature "How they brought the good news from Aix to Ghent". In the last few days I searched for a signpost pointing to Aix-la-Chapelle, but could not find one. However, I found many pictures of signposts featuring "Aachen".
English generally uses Aachen now, as much as anything it is shorter. On the roads, Wallonia has been moving over to the local name, so very few signs will be left with Aix la Chapelle as the destination. Flanders still signs 'Aken (Aachen)'
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